By taking a survey of the Parables of the Kingdom and its consumation,
I really don't understand how anyone with any level of comprehension, can come away from an honest evaluation of Jesus words, that there is anything in them that hints of reclamation of any kind being offered to the unrepentant!
Bob, Jesus's words are not the entire bible, what do you think of Paul's words? There is no question the wicked are separated from the righteous on judgement day and they will have great regret which can be seen in their weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Beyond that you are adding your own views to Jesus's words since he did'nt say final nor permanent judgement.
There are other places where words like "eternal fire" appear which could mean a variety of things if you are willing to consider other possibilities then your singular viewpoint.
As you may know the few times we see the word "eternal" it comes from the greek word "aionios" which is the plural of "aion" or age. So basically "aionios" being the plural of age really means "ages" yet it has been translated as "eternal" and thus the doctrine of eternal hell was born.
There is no doubt the only way to salvation is through Jesus and the sooner the better but what the bible says regarding what unbelievers face at death is that they face judgement "krisis."
The greek word "krisis" simply does not mean eternal punishment, it means what it sounds like.
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord
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Bob,
Interestingly, I was thinking along the same lines as your most recent post, in particular the parable of the dragnet in Matthew 13:47-50. Jesus says the wicked shall be cast into the fire; not one hint they will get out of the fire. If universalism is true, Jesus would appear to even a casual reader to have been rather careless, at best, in His illustrations. In addition to the parable of the dragnet, the following should be considered:
1. Matthew 13:36-40; the tares burned in the fire at the end of the age. The illustration is one of total destruction, no hint that the tares have a chance to become wheat at some future time. In verses 41-42 this saying is clearly applied to the wicked.
2. Matthew 18:23-35; The unmerciful servant who is delivered to the torturers with no possibility of ever getting out.
3. Matthew 24:45-51; the evil servant who is destroyed when his Master returns.
4. Matthew 25:1-13; the five foolish virgins who had no oil and the master closed the door on them.
5. Matthew 25:14-30; the unprofitable servant cast into outer darkness when his lord returned.
6. Matthew 25: 31-46; the sheep and the goats. (nothing more needs to be said on this one)
7. John 5:28-29; the final judgement, those who have done evil condemned.
8. Luke 6:49: Jesus compared the man who did nothing to a house destroyed in a flood.
9. Luke 12:5; Jesus warns to fear Him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell. (Todd, how do you explain this one?)
10. Luke 14:61-24; none who refused an invitation to the great supper will ever have a taste.
11. Luke 16:19-31; the rich man and Lazarus and the great fixed gulf.
Enough for now. All these support either eternal punishment or annihilation. Not one hint of support in any of them for the universalist position, rather, some of the illustrations allow no possibility of it. If universalism is true, let the universalists show us by the words of Messiah. Where is your comparable list of passages where Jesus even hints of post mortem salvation?
As Rick said, we need to look at the big picture, the whole "tenor" of scripture as I said long ago, rather than interminable logomachy regarding the meaning of aionios.
Interestingly, I was thinking along the same lines as your most recent post, in particular the parable of the dragnet in Matthew 13:47-50. Jesus says the wicked shall be cast into the fire; not one hint they will get out of the fire. If universalism is true, Jesus would appear to even a casual reader to have been rather careless, at best, in His illustrations. In addition to the parable of the dragnet, the following should be considered:
1. Matthew 13:36-40; the tares burned in the fire at the end of the age. The illustration is one of total destruction, no hint that the tares have a chance to become wheat at some future time. In verses 41-42 this saying is clearly applied to the wicked.
2. Matthew 18:23-35; The unmerciful servant who is delivered to the torturers with no possibility of ever getting out.
3. Matthew 24:45-51; the evil servant who is destroyed when his Master returns.
4. Matthew 25:1-13; the five foolish virgins who had no oil and the master closed the door on them.
5. Matthew 25:14-30; the unprofitable servant cast into outer darkness when his lord returned.
6. Matthew 25: 31-46; the sheep and the goats. (nothing more needs to be said on this one)
7. John 5:28-29; the final judgement, those who have done evil condemned.
8. Luke 6:49: Jesus compared the man who did nothing to a house destroyed in a flood.
9. Luke 12:5; Jesus warns to fear Him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell. (Todd, how do you explain this one?)
10. Luke 14:61-24; none who refused an invitation to the great supper will ever have a taste.
11. Luke 16:19-31; the rich man and Lazarus and the great fixed gulf.
Enough for now. All these support either eternal punishment or annihilation. Not one hint of support in any of them for the universalist position, rather, some of the illustrations allow no possibility of it. If universalism is true, let the universalists show us by the words of Messiah. Where is your comparable list of passages where Jesus even hints of post mortem salvation?
As Rick said, we need to look at the big picture, the whole "tenor" of scripture as I said long ago, rather than interminable logomachy regarding the meaning of aionios.
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A Berean
Homer,
Well said! You've pointed out much more than I've attempted. What I hope everyone realizes, if left up to me , I would side with the Christian Universalists. I really like their position. I just don't think its the truth, and as I've said in an earlier post, truth sometimes is a bitter pill. Hell is not something I would want for anyone!
God Bless,
Bob
Well said! You've pointed out much more than I've attempted. What I hope everyone realizes, if left up to me , I would side with the Christian Universalists. I really like their position. I just don't think its the truth, and as I've said in an earlier post, truth sometimes is a bitter pill. Hell is not something I would want for anyone!
God Bless,
Bob
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I'm studying up . . . and found:
The 'person' is the Church with its feet on the ground (earth).
The Head is Christ.
Also, I'm listening to a debate: Eternal Conscious Torment or Annihilation?
(universalist position not represented...added FYI)
Be back later to reply & comment, thought this (graph) might help us out some.
(a small picture of the Big Picture),
Rick
The 'person' is the Church with its feet on the ground (earth).
The Head is Christ.
Also, I'm listening to a debate: Eternal Conscious Torment or Annihilation?
(universalist position not represented...added FYI)
Be back later to reply & comment, thought this (graph) might help us out some.
(a small picture of the Big Picture),
Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
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_Father_of_five
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Homer,
The list of scriptures you summarized show that God will punish unforgiven sin. None of those who have taken a position for Universal Reconciliation have disputed that. It is the nature of the punishment that has been the point of this debate. Certainly if you take these descriptions literally you will reach one conclusion; however, if you take them metaphorically, another conclusion can be reached that doesn't conflict with the words of Paul.
The whole issue can be boiled down to this question: Does God punish without a redemptive purpose? Paidion has stated it this way, "All God's punishments are remedial." I agree.
Rom 8:21
...the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Todd
The list of scriptures you summarized show that God will punish unforgiven sin. None of those who have taken a position for Universal Reconciliation have disputed that. It is the nature of the punishment that has been the point of this debate. Certainly if you take these descriptions literally you will reach one conclusion; however, if you take them metaphorically, another conclusion can be reached that doesn't conflict with the words of Paul.
The whole issue can be boiled down to this question: Does God punish without a redemptive purpose? Paidion has stated it this way, "All God's punishments are remedial." I agree.
Rom 8:21
...the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Todd
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_STEVE7150
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"All God's punishments are remedial." I agree.
Amen , and for those who believe the rest of the bible it says that in the day of judgement the world will learn righteousness. Isa 26.9
And that the ears of the deaf will be opened as well as their eyes on that day, Isa 29.
Amen , and for those who believe the rest of the bible it says that in the day of judgement the world will learn righteousness. Isa 26.9
And that the ears of the deaf will be opened as well as their eyes on that day, Isa 29.
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Last night I was thinking about Andy. Andy, a friend of our two sons, has just lost his battle with brain cancer. Life seems so unfair. Andy was a good Christian, someone that everyone who knew him said what a nice person he was. And I thought of Andy's parents. Although they are Christians, their loss must be immense. I can only imagine their pain; nothing seems worse than to lose your child.
Then somehow an old tragedy came to mind. My wife and I grew up in central California, east of Fresno. We lived not far from the "river bottom" where the Kings River poured out of the Sierras. "God's country" as the people in Fresno said. A place of rivers, streams, and ponds within a few miles, where I spent many happy days fishing.
It was not a happy place for one family. My wife knew them all well, was in their home. They were Christians. Their little girl, Esther Lee Lewis, was waiting near a bridge for her school bus. A wicked man abducted her and she was raped and murdered. You can imagine what else she suffered.
Our universalist friends inform us that it is unjust to suffer unending punishment for "finite" sin. When I think of this little girl and her family, and this idea of her murder being a "finite" sin it almost makes me sick!
How do you measure the suffering of the child? How do you measure the suffering of her parents? Is there a way to determine the height, width, depth, or weight of it? What scale or measuring instrument would you use?I am unable to imagine how bad they must have felt. I can think of nothing more painful than the death of an innocent child, especially one horribly raped and murdered.
In the case of Esther's family, the mother was never the same again. The father turned bitterly against God for years. My wife says there was a pall of sadness over the whole family as long as she knew them. And you speak of "finite" sin.
And it is posited that even Hitler will be rehabilitated and brought into the heavenly fold. Hitler has outdone the wickedness of Esther Lee's murderer by the millions. How much does he suffer in hell? How long, where there are no days or weeks or years? Let us measure his "finite" wickedness so we can know the appropriate punishment.
P.S.
Then somehow an old tragedy came to mind. My wife and I grew up in central California, east of Fresno. We lived not far from the "river bottom" where the Kings River poured out of the Sierras. "God's country" as the people in Fresno said. A place of rivers, streams, and ponds within a few miles, where I spent many happy days fishing.
It was not a happy place for one family. My wife knew them all well, was in their home. They were Christians. Their little girl, Esther Lee Lewis, was waiting near a bridge for her school bus. A wicked man abducted her and she was raped and murdered. You can imagine what else she suffered.
Our universalist friends inform us that it is unjust to suffer unending punishment for "finite" sin. When I think of this little girl and her family, and this idea of her murder being a "finite" sin it almost makes me sick!
How do you measure the suffering of the child? How do you measure the suffering of her parents? Is there a way to determine the height, width, depth, or weight of it? What scale or measuring instrument would you use?I am unable to imagine how bad they must have felt. I can think of nothing more painful than the death of an innocent child, especially one horribly raped and murdered.
In the case of Esther's family, the mother was never the same again. The father turned bitterly against God for years. My wife says there was a pall of sadness over the whole family as long as she knew them. And you speak of "finite" sin.
And it is posited that even Hitler will be rehabilitated and brought into the heavenly fold. Hitler has outdone the wickedness of Esther Lee's murderer by the millions. How much does he suffer in hell? How long, where there are no days or weeks or years? Let us measure his "finite" wickedness so we can know the appropriate punishment.
P.S.
Where do we find this? 3rd Peter somewhere perhaps?"All God's punishments are remedial."
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A Berean
Todd,
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
So are you saying this is a metaphor? Please explain how this plain warning from Messiah fits into your belief that all suffering for sin occurs in this life.
Luke 12:5 (New King James Version)
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
So are you saying this is a metaphor? Please explain how this plain warning from Messiah fits into your belief that all suffering for sin occurs in this life.
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A Berean
Homer,
I read your touching story of the girl who was raped and murdered. My heart goes out to the family, and all who were affected by this tragic and wicked sin.
I have been watching this thread with both interest and dismay. Interest, because the subject of the judgment of God deeply interests me, and dismay because it seems to me that everyone is convinced in their own mind of the correctness of their position and valiantly attempting to disprove others. I see such statements as scripture "clearly" teaches this, or comments about the poor exegetical skills of those in the other camp, and I wonder if we have any hope of discovering truth with such an attitude.
I think of the words of our Lord, how God has chosen to hide the truths of the kingdom from the wise and prudent, and revealed them to babes. I wonder which of these categories we fall into.
In hearing your story of the girl who was raped and murdered it brought to mind the story in another thread of the Amish girls who were murdered, and the reaction of their loved ones. It seems the reaction to that story on this forum was that the Amish were demonstrating the love of God and obedience to the commands of our Lord to forgive and love our enemies (so we could be like Him).
I think of this, and then I wonder. When I am watching those who have wronged me on the day of judgment, am I going to want them "condemned" to eternal torment or destroyed? Am I going to want to seem them "pay" for the wrongs they did to me? Or am I going to be like our Lord and say "Father, forgive them"? Will the pain I suffered in this life still seem important? Or will the joy set before me out-weigh the pains of this current life? I don't know.
I could go on and address some of your questions about the warnings of our Lord, but what's the point? We have done this before, but not to your satisfaction. Noone's mind is going to be changed. You feel strongly one way, others (including me) feel strongly in the other direction. Probably we both will find (when all becomes clear) how little we understood the Grand Plan of our Lord.
Personally, I just think the ending is a lot more satisfactory than you seem to
Blessings,
Mike
I read your touching story of the girl who was raped and murdered. My heart goes out to the family, and all who were affected by this tragic and wicked sin.
I have been watching this thread with both interest and dismay. Interest, because the subject of the judgment of God deeply interests me, and dismay because it seems to me that everyone is convinced in their own mind of the correctness of their position and valiantly attempting to disprove others. I see such statements as scripture "clearly" teaches this, or comments about the poor exegetical skills of those in the other camp, and I wonder if we have any hope of discovering truth with such an attitude.
I think of the words of our Lord, how God has chosen to hide the truths of the kingdom from the wise and prudent, and revealed them to babes. I wonder which of these categories we fall into.
In hearing your story of the girl who was raped and murdered it brought to mind the story in another thread of the Amish girls who were murdered, and the reaction of their loved ones. It seems the reaction to that story on this forum was that the Amish were demonstrating the love of God and obedience to the commands of our Lord to forgive and love our enemies (so we could be like Him).
I think of this, and then I wonder. When I am watching those who have wronged me on the day of judgment, am I going to want them "condemned" to eternal torment or destroyed? Am I going to want to seem them "pay" for the wrongs they did to me? Or am I going to be like our Lord and say "Father, forgive them"? Will the pain I suffered in this life still seem important? Or will the joy set before me out-weigh the pains of this current life? I don't know.
I could go on and address some of your questions about the warnings of our Lord, but what's the point? We have done this before, but not to your satisfaction. Noone's mind is going to be changed. You feel strongly one way, others (including me) feel strongly in the other direction. Probably we both will find (when all becomes clear) how little we understood the Grand Plan of our Lord.
Personally, I just think the ending is a lot more satisfactory than you seem to
Blessings,
Mike
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_STEVE7150
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The father turned bitterly against God for years. My wife says there was a pall of sadness over the whole family as long as she knew them. And you speak of "finite" sin
So the murderer spending millions of years in hell would not be enough, the only thing that suffices is eternity.
The father during his grieving period became embittered toward God so if he would have died then, he would spend eternity in hell and the girl if she was 14 and did'nt believe , same fate.
Yet the murderer may have accepted Christ on his last day on earth and he would spend eternity in heaven , according to our eternal punishment friends.
Either it's black or white, either your in or you are out, nothing proportional about eternal punishment.
And it does'nt matter what you believed your entire life, only matters what you believe on your deathbed.
There is no justice in your belief system Homer only the possibility of retribution.
Did you ever hear of David Berkowitz/AKA , Son of Sam who murdered about 6-7 people in parked cars in the 70s? He is in jail for life but he accepted Christ and has a jail ministry. What should God do with him?
So the murderer spending millions of years in hell would not be enough, the only thing that suffices is eternity.
The father during his grieving period became embittered toward God so if he would have died then, he would spend eternity in hell and the girl if she was 14 and did'nt believe , same fate.
Yet the murderer may have accepted Christ on his last day on earth and he would spend eternity in heaven , according to our eternal punishment friends.
Either it's black or white, either your in or you are out, nothing proportional about eternal punishment.
And it does'nt matter what you believed your entire life, only matters what you believe on your deathbed.
There is no justice in your belief system Homer only the possibility of retribution.
Did you ever hear of David Berkowitz/AKA , Son of Sam who murdered about 6-7 people in parked cars in the 70s? He is in jail for life but he accepted Christ and has a jail ministry. What should God do with him?
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