My Case for eternal Hell

[RICHinCHRIST]

1 Timothy 4:10 seems like it irrefutably teaches universal reconciliation. If most people remain separated from God forever, how could it be said that Jesus is the savior of all people, or the world? The word especially implies that nonbelievers will also be saved somehow. How is this to occur but in postmortem opportunities?

[Paidion]

That makes perfect sense to me Rich. But many who do not accept unversal reconciliation, do not believe that Jesus is the saviour of all people. Rather when they read 1 Tim 4:10, they think, "Jesus is the potential saviour of all people."

[Singalphile]

Paidion wrote:
I suppose one could ask another "especially" question. In what sense Jesus is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe? (Tim 4:10) If He saves all people, in what way are believers especially saved? I suggest it may be that they will not have to undergo correction, or at least not to the same degree, as those who don't believe (entrust themselves to the Saviour).

Hello all, again. I'd interpret it like this:

- "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior from sin of all men, especially of believers in Jesus." (Underlined words added by me.)

God saves us from more than one thing. God has saved all, to some extent, from sin and its effects, but especially believers. That seems obviously true, so I would take that to be the best, most fitting interpretation that I know of.

There are other things from which God saves us all that might make some sense there - maybe general calamities, judgements, immediate death ... things that both non-believers and especially believers are saved from.

It doesn't seem likely to me that Paul is saying that all unbelievers will eventually become believers, whereupon they will be saved (from death/hell), just not so "especially". That doesn't make as much sense, I think.

As for reading it so that God (the verse doesn't mention Jesus) is the potential savior (from death/hell) of all men ... that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either because of the "especially" part.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Hello all, again. I'd interpret it like this:

- "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior from sin of all men, especially of believers in Jesus." (Underlined words added by me.)

God saves us from more than one thing. God has saved all, to some extent, from sin and its effects, but especially believers. That seems obviously true, so I would take that to be the best, most fitting interpretation that I know of.

How has God saved everyone from sin and its effects? Nonbelievers, currently, are not saved from sin nor its effects. When, then, do they become saved, if not after they die? By the way, sometimes God allows the effects of sin to linger on one who is saved from sin itself.

There are other things from which God saves us all that might make some sense there - maybe general calamities, judgements, immediate death ... things that both non-believers and especially believers are saved from.

But how is the word Savior usually used in reference to God? As far as I know, its always in reference to Christ's work on the cross. Did Jesus die to save us from general calamities? Many Christians have suffered calamities in their lifetime.

It doesn't seem likely to me that Paul is saying that all unbelievers will eventually become believers, whereupon they will be saved (from death/hell), just not so "especially". That doesn't make as much sense, I think.

As for reading it so that God (the verse doesn't mention Jesus) is the potential savior (from death/hell) of all men ... that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either because of the "especially" part.

But if God is the Savior of all people, and the word Savior is interpreted as it is always interpreted in every other context, how will Nonbelievers be saved unless they believe? We're only saved by faith. So if God is the Savior of all people, then eventually all must believe. If all do not believe, and most disbelieve, then how could it be said that God saved them at all?

[jriccitelli]

'do these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality' (1Tim.4:1-5:21)

Rich the answer is in the context of the chapter and letter, which is why it seems to be confusing in 'any' other sense than the context of the chapter. As you alluded to; How can the verse imply that those who ‘don’t’ believe are saved?

Paul has exhaustively defined salvation in detail in Romans and he does so at the beginning and main body of his soteriological letters. Having well established in other letters that; you must Believe, have Faith, and Trust in His word to be saved, Paul is not now contradicting clear passages with a word in the back of the book under a different topic, after Paul has moved ‘well beyond teaching basic foundations for salvation’, and is now laying out church discipline.

The verse (1Tim 4:10) is meant to give hope in various Christian work, trials, and persecutions even when encountering the lies and hypocrites spoken of in verse 4:1-3. When encountering these people we are reminded that we have an obligation to not give up or grow weary in doing so – because - Paul then reminds the ministers that these sinners are also those for whom Christ died, the understanding being that all men are sinners, for whom Christ died, especially those who believe.
As Paul just exhorted them to consider “even every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused, for it is sanctified by the word of God…” (4:4-5), So 'be a good minister filled up on the word of God' (so to be able to accept all) and remember to focus on the “promise of the life to come” (4:8), “therefore… because we trust… that God is the Savior of all men”. Paul means we should accept all men without judgment and favoritism 'because' God is the Savior of sinners, of which we 'all' were (1:13-16).
The contrast can be seen reflected immediately in vs.4:12 “let no man despise your youth”, and watch yourself also (4:16) so we again do not become judgmental towards others different than ourselves, as vs. 5:1-21 especially addresses. Verse 5:1 begins; “Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father”, then again do not become judgmental towards elder women, young mothers, widows, younger widows, younger women, honor elders, do not muzzle oxs, and laborers, and then Paul says in 5:21; "do these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality"

Note; Paul ask that prayers “be made for all men” (2:1), Paul is not telling them they should each be praying for each and every human on the planet, Paul is simply saying; do not consider someone unworthy of prayer.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Hi JR. I was not asking my questions because I was confused (as you seem to be implying), but they were intended to be rhetorical questions. The verse clearly says that God is the Savior of all men. But we are told that only those who believe will be saved. Therefore, I concluded, that those who do not currently believe will believe eventually (whether in this life or the next). If all will not believe and be saved, then how can it be said that God is the Savior of all people? I don't think there has been an adequate answer to that question.

Also, you are appealing to the context of the passage to prove your point. However, in my estimation Paul is going from topic to topic quite swiftly in this chapter.

But even still, 1 Timothy 4:10 is a comment Paul is making in passing (as he often does), and it appears he is commenting on the scope of salvation (as he does similarly in romans 5:17-19). The scope of God's saving work is universal. The problem everyone is having with this verse is that they don't like such a clear cut statement that teaches UR. Paul had a wonderful grasp of the Greek language, and he could have said "God can be the savior of all people", or "God might be the savior of all people", or "God potentially can save all people". Or he could have said "God will only save those who believe in this lifetime". But Paul did not use those extra words but instead clearly declares that God IS the Savior of all men. This implies He WILL save all men. Unless someone has a better interpretation of how God is the savior of all, I think a common sense honest hermeneutic points directly to UR.

[Singalphile]

RICHinCHRIST wrote:
How has God saved everyone from sin and its effects? Nonbelievers, currently, are not saved from sin nor its effects. When, then, do they become saved, if not after they die?

I do think that believers are now saved from sin (though it's a process, and I agree about the lingering). Don't you think that that is a benefit to non-believers, too? Everyone benefits when there is less sin in the world. God saves everyone from sin (their own or others') to some extent, but the believer is especially/particularly saved.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:
But how is the word Savior usually used in reference to God? As far as I know, its always in reference to Christ's work on the cross. ... But if God is the Savior of all people, and the word Savior is interpreted as it is always interpreted in every other context, ...

That is a good question. I don't think that the word "savior" or forms of "save", "deliver", "rescue", etc. have the same interpretation or focus in every context (Savior word search), though I think we're often inclined to read into it a certain way.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:
... how will Nonbelievers be saved unless they believe? We're only saved by faith. So if God is the Savior of all people, then eventually all must believe. If all do not believe, and most disbelieve, then how could it be said that God saved them at all?

That's the issue, I think. The verse says that God is (present tense) the Savior of all, non-believers and believers, but the latter receive special salvation. In this verse, if you equate "having a savior" with "being a believer", then the sentence doesn't make sense, imo. It would be like saying, "I am a friend of all men named John, especially men named John."

So one must ask what else it is that God saves us from that benefits all men? I think there is a true, good, reasonable answer: sin and its general consequences.
Not the only possibility, but a better one, I think.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:
The problem everyone is having with this verse is that they don't like such a clear cut statement that teaches UR.

I promise you that that is not true. Unfortunately, I can't prove it to you so you'll just have to take my word for it. But at least now I know that you're capable of having the wrong opinion (like the rest of us).

The actual problem that I have is the "especially of believers" part. If it were not for that clause, then I could put this verse in the UR column without a ?-mark. However, by adding "especially of believers", Paul defines and affirms two distinct categories, believers and non-believers, and he tells us that the believers receive (present tense) a special or particular or additional salvation that the non-believers do not. (We know from elsewhere, for example, that only believers will receive unending life, but that is a future benefit.) So God is in a sense the Savior, Friend, Father, Healer, Comforter, Lover, etc. of all men ... but especially of those who believe. That is not necessarily an affirmation of UR. It's not troublesome either unless one tries to read too much into it, I think. So the ?-mark remains, I think.

I really appreciate a discussion focusing on the verses. Thank you!

[RICHinCHRIST]

I still think it's a bit of a stretch to say that nonbelievers are saved from sin and its effects simply because believers are not sinning against them... but I digress.

You mentioned that the word especially is the hard part. Advocates of UR see this verse as giving some indication that believers in this life will reign authoritatively over nonbelievers after they repent in the next life. This could also point to the idea that believers will not have to endure the fires of hell for repentance... in this sense the current believers are especially saved.

[Singalphile]

I hear you. So it could, I suppose. Thanks for your time.

[steve7150]

But even still, 1 Timothy 4:10 is a comment Paul is making in passing (as he often does), and it appears he is commenting on the scope of salvation (as he does similarly in romans 5:17-19). The scope of God's saving work is universal











Perhaps it's something like Passover where the blood on the doorposts was to save the firstborn that night, but later God saved all of Israel.