If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

[thrombomodulin]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I am indeed confused about what you (and Jesus) are affirming. Throughout this thread I have understood you to be affirming that to be accepted by Christ means that one's motives for their actions must be of a purity that consideration of selfish desires has to be completely absent. I'm inferencing this from statements such as the following:

A man or woman must choose Christ even if it costs him or her everything, and benefits nothing. It is Christ's due

In affirming (as I have been saying since my teen years) that I would serve Christ even if there were no rewards or punishments to consider, I know I am telling the truth, and I never thought of it as a boast. I simply have considered this to be the biblical attitude of those who love God

A man or woman must choose Christ even if it costs him or her everything, and benefits nothing. It is Christ's due.

Motive, apparently, is everything

We are talking about motivation for following Christ

If there were no heaven, would you still lay your life down for God?" it is simple and honest to answer similarly. To answer otherwise would mean that I love God less than I love my children, and cannot be a disciple (Luke 14:26; Matt.10:37).

This culminated in the example you gave of your first wife who, in her last moments, acted in a manner that could be described as essentially selfless. Per Matthew 10:37, I understood you to affirm that a disciple's denial of himself for the sake of God must exceed that of her denial of self for the sake of her daughter.

If complete self denial is indeed required, why not raise the bar even higher to bring it out more clearly? For example, suppose the traditional eternal destinies of the righteous and wicked were swapped. Should we say that if a person wishes to discern if they really are a true follower, that they should ponder whether they would be willing to serve Christ if the outcome were to mean being assigned to endless, eternal conscience torment, and forgoing the alternative of disobedience which results in being granted an eternal life of everlasting joy and bliss?

This led me to ask myself the questions: Have I denied myself enough to be acceptable to Christ? Are my motives pure enough to be accepted by Christ? If I am lacking in such, how can I remedy the situation? Pursuant to the ice cream example, I can see that at my discretion I could elect to live a more selfless life than I have been doing up until now. My choice not to "go further" can only be categorized as selfish. It is driven by nothing besides concerns for my own experience of a certain amount of personal pleasure, for no one else was able to participate in the pleasure of consuming it. I have clearly embraced a lifestyle that retains a place for selfish actions to accommodated.

This leads me back to the point that denial of self is a matter of degree, and that it can never be complete. Perhaps you were in agreement with this all along - and I overlooked it. For you had said:

If one is following Christ primarily or exclusively out of [selfishness]*, there is no biblical reason to be assured of his conversion. It's that simple. I don't go around deciding who is or is not saved. However, I do think I have an idea, based upon scripture, of what is required of a person in order to be saved: repentance. This word means a change of mind. What has to change in the mind? Simply the opinion of whose interests will come first in one's life from that point onward.

The word "primarily" is the key. Do you agree or disagree that a person is accepted by Christ if his decision to follow him is based "partially", "somewhat", or "a little bit" on his own selfishness? If so, do you have any suggestions about discerning "how much" selflessness is enough to please Christ? As I see it, the only thing separating me and the man in the OP is a matter of degree, not of kind, and so I have no solid ground on which to stand to critique his position.

Peter

[steve]

Peter,

I am not intending to make any judgment about you or your motives. My posts, from the beginning of this thread, have been a discussion of the original post, as well as an attempt to clarify matters that have, in the process, been addressed to me. The quotes you cite above seem to me uncontroversial.

I have never suggested that the Christian life contains no enjoyment, or fulfills no desire in the participant. If a Christian does not find some satisfaction in life for his serving Christ, I wonder if he actually has come to know God.

My assumption is that normal Christianity is that which is described by Christ and the New Testament church. Of course, the church was characterized by inexpressible joy, and Jesus said that the intention of His teaching was "that your joy may be full." Being full of joy is a desirable thing, which is why I wouldn't trade it for any other course of life.

When I mention forsaking all for Christ, you seem to be picturing a burdensome life of austerity. I do not read of this in the life of Jesus, nor of the apostles. It is the pursuit of self-agendas that produces an unfulfilled life. Christ came that we might have life abundantly (though He was clear that "abundance" is not measured in possessions—Luke 12:15).

If we were created to serve God, how could serving Him be anything less than the greatest fulfillment? If He has richly given us all things to enjoy (1 Tim.6:17), how could we not enjoy them? The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom.14:17). What else is there in the world to be desired than these things?

My comments on this thread, from the beginning, have been about the motivations for professing faith in Christ. The man described in the original post confessed that he had nothing but selfish interest to motivate him. This, by definition, is the opposite of being motivated by love. Without love, there is no evidence that one is saved (1 John 4:7-8).

I have raised the point a number of times about people who will gladly die for their country or their loved ones, whether or not they believe in future rewards or punishments. I don't think anyone responding to me here has addressed this point. Can a Christian love God less than an unbeliever loves his country? I find this inconceivable.

Becoming a Christian is not discovering a Sugar-daddy. It is making a full-commitment to a Father, a King and a Lord.

[Breckmin]

A few weeks ago, in the preceding text, I argued that a complete abolition of selfishness is impossible.

Child like faith is where we start.... and in some sense where we attempt to stay. It is humility and self sacrifice that
is the goal. To deny the flesh and walk in the Spirit. Peter, I'm not sure if you are attempting to "quantify" levels of
selflessness vs. selfishness. Walking in the Spirit is something we do when we have received deliverance and we are
at that moment walking by faith and NOT making provision for the flesh (other than to follow stewardship and take
care of our bodies - that are the temple of the Holy Spirit). I would agree that complete abolition of selfishness
through sustained periods of time is very very difficult because we are having to continually "throw back the flesh"
so to speak and not give into its desires. Being filled with the Holy Spirit after deliverance in a moment, however,
is different from what can happen after being bombarded by the things of the world and also what happens when
we willfully sin and conspire with demons (unclean deceiving spirits) often without knowing it.

True deliverance is not a one time exorcism...it is day to day deliverance. Those who practice what is called
"self-deliverance" understand what it is I am talking about. 1. Is to identify "lies" and false beliefs which you
are in bondage to. This takes the power of God through the power of prayer. 2. To confess these (lies) and confess
other sins (willful sins) especially unforgiveness and know that you are cleansed from all unrighteousness
(1 John 1:9). 3. I'm just going to say this boldly because it is the truth: To command away demons! (In the Name and the Authority of Jesus Christ of Nazareth). These demons are unclean deceiving spirits and they gain a "foothold" in our lives through
unconfessed sin, and especially through false beliefs (lies - and this can especially bad theology). Absolutely.
The scriptures teach us to "resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7). This is NOT done by your
own power, but by the power/name/authority of Christ. You can even say "The Lord rebuke you" to unclean
deceiving spirits, but a more direct way is to engage them in battle directly....(here is the important part)
knowing in full faith that it is RIGHT for them to leave....because you have dealt with false beliefs and with
sin in your life and you have broken any rights for them to claim a foothold on the battlefield of your mind.

If you want to walk in the Spirit on a day to day basis you must engage in spiritual warfare. This is done
out loud with your mouth in oral commands, NOT with thinking thoughts. You don't think fight, you speak
fight. Prayer and fasting is an important part of this and NOT making provision for the flesh. If you really
want to kick the addictions of smoking, or alcohol addiction or pornography or these kinds of things...
deliverance and not making provision for the flesh is how you can have victory. It is taking Christ's yoke
and seeing that it is easy to deny the things of the flesh when you do this.

I don't know of any way to really correctly address the subject that you are talking about without addressing
the subject of deliverance. Self-deliverance is NOT self-deliverance. Self-deliverance is an elliptical
nomenclature which means you are performing deliverance on yourself *through the Power/Authority of Christ*
in/by the Power of the Holy Spirit and recognizing your position in Christ. You must know that you are
completely weak and that demons could crush you in seconds (it is the Power of God that fights for you).

Are there other roads to deliverance other than confessing lies, confessing sins and commanding away
demonic spirits after you have done this confession??? Yes. It will still involve confession, however.
Prayer, reading scripture and worship are an essential part of walking in the Spirit and not walking in
the flesh. Filling up your mind with the truth of the Word of God and living in obedience limits the
ability of unclean deceiving spirits to gain a foothold in your life (battlefield of your mind)...and we
could have another long discussion on how you maintain deliverance.

The bottom line here is that I do not believe that there is a way to quantify deliverance levels from
our perspective any more than there is a way to quantify selfishness. The enemies of God can attack
you at any time. It is a day to day battle. If you are commanding away demonic spirits from others
why wouldn't you command them away from yourself? At the end, when you 'are' delivered there is
a peace which surpasses all understanding. When you have engaged the anxiety attack or whatever
feelings your body is giving you when you are engaged in the heat of the battle of self-deliverance
there comes a point of victory in Jesus' Name where/when you 'feel the release' and all you want to do
is raise your hands in worship. That is the experience of deliverance for the believer...absolute
peace and desire to worship. Perhaps this is a point of the selflessness you are attempting to
discuss...walking in the Spirit and by faith after deliverance rather than walking in the flesh....
(and please understand that there are different types of deliverance here...lest we equivocate
on the word deliverance as it relates to salvation and how all Christians are delivered from their
sins...I have been discussing a particular kind of deliverance from demonization).

Spiritual warfare is a serious thing. Once the enemy knows that YOU know that they are there...
they will usually attempt to give you every possible deception they can bring at you to destroy
you spiritually. The enemy will almost always pretend to be God. I recommend an active
mouth that speaks against them in the Name and the Authority of Jesus Christ. Romans 8 is
important for your faith. Ephesians 6 is important for understanding your warfare. The battle-
field is your mind and we must fight and pray to keep this enemy off of the battlefield of our
minds. Pray for wisdom...and for protection from deception always.

[thrombomodulin]

Steve,

I need to think about this for a while, so I am writing just to let you know that it will be a while before I reply.

Breckmin,

Thanks for your message, had you been able to read this thread from the beginning?

Peter

[SteveF]

I just wanted to include a passage of scripture for consideration in regards to the original question in this thread.

2Ki 17:33 So they feared the LORD but also served their own gods….. Huh? How could that be?

Gentiles who had just moved into the vacated land in Israel faced judgement from God because they did not fear the Lord. The King of Assyria decided these Gentiles must learn what this god requires in order to appease him and not face any more judgement.

They got an Israeli priest to teach them certain rites to follow. This is the sense that they `feared`God, but not because they truly loved or feared God but because they were afraid of His judgements and sought to placate Him. Their hearts were never truly God`s. They only did what they felt was necessary in order to avoid judgement. Should a Christian’s service to God be merely to appease Him in hopes of avoiding judgment as well? I don`t think so.

Back in the 1980`s a friend of mine called me up from work and asked me to look up the word `feared` in 2 Kings 17:33 (the verse quoted above). He wanted to see if it was the same Hebrew word used when the fear of the Lord was mentioned in other passages. The verse left him perplexed and me as well. How could it say they feared the Lord when they served their gods?

I think it was later that day or the next day I felt strongly compelled to go to my bookshelf. I then felt compelled to pull out a book by Charles Finney called Crystal Christianity. I flipped open the book to around the middle or so and it opened directly to a sermon titled Idolatry and the Fear of God. There was a verse of scripture immediately below the title which he based his sermon on. It was the very verse we were wondering about! Needless to say I read the sermon, then called my friend and read the sermon to him over the phone.

I think the sermon is relevant to the discussion on this thread. Here are the opening paragraphs:


IDOLATRY AND THE FEAR OF GOD

by Charles G. Finney

"They feared the Lord, and served their own gods"--2 Kings 17:33

When the ten tribes of Israel were carried away by the king of Assyria, their land was repopulated with strangers of different idolatrous nations who knew nothing of the religion of the Jews. Very soon, the wild beasts increased in the country, and the lions destroyed multitudes of the people. They thought it was because they did not know the god of that country and had therefore ignorantly transgressed and offended him.

So they applied to the king, who told them to get one of the priests of the Israelites to teach them the manner of the god of the land. They took this advice and obtained one of the priests to come to Bethel and teach them the religious ceremonies and modes of worship that had been practiced there. And he taught them to fear Jehovah as the god of that country. But still, they did not receive Him as the only God. They feared Him, that is, they feared His anger and His judgments; and to avert these they performed the prescribed rites.

But they served their own gods. They kept up their idolatrous worship, and this was what they loved and preferred, although they felt obliged to pay some reverence to Jehovah as a god of that country. Multitudes of persons still profess a certain kind of fear of the Lord who nevertheless serve their own gods--other things to which their hearts are supremely devoted and in which they mainly put their trust.

SERVING IN BONDAGE AND SELFISHNESS

There are two kinds of fear. There is the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom and is founded in love. There is also a slavish fear, which is a mere dread of evil and is purely selfish. This is the kind of fear that was possessed by those people spoken of in the text. They were afraid Jehovah would send His judgments upon them if they did not perform certain rites, and this was the motive they had for worshipping Him. Those who have this fear are supremely selfish and, while they profess to reverence Jehovah, have other gods whom they love and serve.

To serve a person is to be obedient to the will and devoted to the interests of that individual. To serve God is to make Christianity the main business of life and to devote one's self, heart, life, powers, time, influence and all to build up the Kingdom of God and advance His glory. Who are they who profess to fear the Lord but serve their own gods? Anyone who has not heartily and practically renounced the ownership of his possessions and given them up to the Lord.

Suppose a gentleman were to employ a clerk who continued to attend to his own business. When asked to do what is necessary for his employer, who pays him wages, he replied, "I really have so much business of my own that I have no time to do these things." Such a servant was not serving his employer at all. His time was paid for by another, but he served himself. Where a man has not renounced the ownership of himself, not only in thought but practically, he has not taken the first step in Christianity. He is not serving the Lord but serving his own gods.

The man who does not make his business a part of his Christianity does not serve God. Sometimes men say that they are engaged all day in business and don't have time to serve God. They think they serve God a little while in the morning and then attend to their worldly business. They are not serving God. It is a shame for them to pretend to serve God. They are willing to give God the time before breakfast or before they go to work, but as soon as that is over, away they go. They fear the Lord enough to pray morning and night, but they serve their own gods.

Their religion is the laughing stock of hell. While they pray devoutly, they serve themselves instead of engaging in business for God. No doubt the idols are well satisfied with the arrangement, but God is wholly displeased.

Many of you make religion consist in certain acts of piety that do not interfere with your selfishness. You pray in the morning with your family because you can do it then very conveniently. But don't interfere with the service of your own god or stand in the way of your getting rich and enjoying the world. The gods you serve make no complaint of being slighted or neglected for the service of Jehovah.


The rest of the sermon can be found here:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/finney-101/1 ... olatry.htm

[Breckmin]

Breckmin,

Thanks for your message, had you been able to read this thread from the beginning?

Peter

I skimmed some of the messages. It seemed to turn towards self-denial and what is the essence of
surrendering and living for Christ. On the subject of "eternal conscious torment" or "eternal torment"
these are very very poor descriptions of eternal hell (in my opinion) because they fail to make a
distinction between eternal separation and a logical punishment which could cease IF it is possible
for specific payment to be reached at specific times based on the perfect justice of God. Eternal
separation (from God's affectionate fellowship), however, is a given. See the Logical Fallacy of
Christian Universalism under Radio Topics... We don't want to ever deny how great a salvation
we have in Christ Jesus.

I want to encourage you, Peter, to see that our struggle is not against flesh and blood (Eph. 6:12)
when we are battling in spiritual warfare. Yes, it is true, that we have to battle our own fleshly
desires - and selfishness is a pride problem which carries with it spiritual consequences of bondage.
Humility is when we get on our knees before a Holy God and we are totally trusting in our Holy
Creator for "everything" and walking in obedience to Him - asking God to guide/direct where we
go, who we talk to, and what we should share as we pray for wisdom/discernment. These are
things we do after we are saved.

Salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and Lord of our Life (as our King and
our God). This is also part of raising the shield of faith and knowing we are secure in Christ because
of the Power of His Sacrifice on the Cross for our sins. True salvation is personalizing Jesus'
Sacrifice on the Cross as applying to us personally and believing that it pays for (atones for)
ALL of our sins (with no exceptions). We are not condemned by hyper technicalities that we
messed up on...we are condemned by not having a personal relationship with Jesus where we
are trusting Him as Savior. I don't know where you are at, or if any of this helps you right now...
but feel free to message me if I can be of any prayerful assistance.

[Homer]

From Finney's sermon:

Who are they who profess to fear the Lord but serve their own gods? Anyone who has not heartily and practically renounced the ownership of his possessions and given them up to the Lord.

But what does this mean? I have volunteered to mow the lawn for a 90 year old man in town. Does this qualify as to "giving up my lawn mower to God"? I use it for myself mostly. And what about my big Troy Bilt tiller? Not practical to take anywhere (very heavy), although I did some tilling for a neighbor once. Perhaps sharing some of our veggies qualifies for the tiller, we've given lots of veggies away, but then that is no sacrifice as we do not do without. And I never consciously think that I am giving them up to God. I have a great many other tools and loan things to folks, but that seems rather short of "giving them up to God". Many statements are made that leave people floundering for answers.

I'm wondering if the Apostle Peter understood this concept of renouncing the ownership of possessions; if he did, v. 4 is a rather surprising statement:

Acts 4:36-5:4 (NKJV)
36. And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37. having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
5. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4. While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

The man who does not make his business a part of his Christianity does not serve God. Sometimes men say that they are engaged all day in business and don't have time to serve God. They think they serve God a little while in the morning and then attend to their worldly business. They are not serving God.

And I do not understand this statement. For years I got up in the morning, short prayer at breakfast, listened to a short sermon on the way to work, and then spent the day serving the company that was buying my time and ability. I did my job as a Christian should but it was easy because the owners of the corporation were evidently Christian men and they demanded high ethical standards. I do not know if I met Finney's standards; I have no concerns that I met God's.

And this is the problem with many teachers. They heap burdens upon men's consciences that the Lord never placed there.

[Breckmin]

It has been my understanding that God appeals to men to follow him on both the basis of the threat of punishment and also the promise of future rewards.

Historically yes. But Jesus taught us in John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments." There is also a distinction between
threat of punishment and threat of chastisement for the believer. The believer should never "fear" going to hell... that fear
might 'have been' a motivating factor in becoming saved due to spiritual conviction, but once we are saved there is no
condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1) All obedience is done out of love not fear... but it is still
multifaceted in that not only do you want to see blessings which come from obedience, but you may also have a healthy
fear of chastisement and what discipline the Lord may bring on you if you continue in sin.

If this is true, then what is wrong with affirming that threat of punishment, in greater or lesser degree, is a motivating factor in choosing to give up one's worldly desires and sin to follow Christ.

If you are first becoming a believer then I believe the threat of hell is part of the conviction of the Holy Spirit and it
can be a good thing in that the treat of hell could lead you to understand your personal NEED for a Savior. IOW, if
you don't need to be saved from hell, then you don't need a Savior. The reason you need a Savior is indeed to save
you from the consequences of your sins... so coming to Christ to avoid the penalty for your sins could be a good thing,
but when you mature in Christ you realize that this was all part of God's Plan to show incredible grace to you.

What passages of scripture would you cite to demonstrate that motivations, not just a persons actual choices and course of action, matter?

Intentionality is important. 1 Samuel 16:7, Gen. 50: 20, James 4: 17, 1 Cor. 10:31, Col. 3:17, Matt. 6:3 are some
examples of where intentionality is addressed. We obey from the heart and we should be doing so out of our love
for the Father...and our desire to glorify Jesus Christ. Plus, everything should be done in love (1 Cor. 16: 14).

Edit to add: Doesn't a person who chooses to forgo sin, although some part of him desires it, fulfill the requirement to "deny oneself"? After all, there is no denial of self if there remain no sinful desires.

It is the flesh that desires to sin, however. The TRUE eternal believer who is the eternal person "does no sin." What
I mean by that is tantamount to the concept of "the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." (Matt. 26: 41). If a believer
were to shed the ball and chain of the sinful flesh they would have no desire to sin anymore. The true regenerated
born-again eternal spirit of a person does not desire to sin....BUT this born-again spiritual part of a person CAN get
suppressed. So to answer your question... yes, if you choose the things of the spirit rather than the things of the
flesh you will be denying your flesh/self. The flesh needs to be beaten into submission (via self-control NOT self
physical beating), but when you are walking in the spirit... you really only "want" to please God so denying the
flesh is somewhat easy (most of the time), except for physical needs (and wants that have to be kept under
submission).

This would be my perspective. Humility means ultimately we submit to God and when we submit to God
we desire to serve one another. This is denying the flesh/ourselves.

[Breckmin]

But what does this mean?

Homer, my perspective is that we just recognize that everything is owned by God. God is the Owner of
the universe and He Owns and Sustains all matter/energy/moving space - down to every sub atomic particle
so that we should always be mindful that it is all His. Our money, our lives, our time...it all ultimately
belongs to the Slave Master. We are the slaves and God owns us. If Jesus is God, then it is logical to
be a slave to Christ. My cars, my house, my clothes, my computer are all God's possessions. It is unwise
to use anything of God's for dishonorable use. I don't own my own body, God does...and by His Grace
it is the temple of the Holy Spirit as well which I am completely undeserving of. This is a truth that
would not be hidden and part of the reality that is linked to eternity and the fact that God is not somehow
obligated to save any body... but that salvation is by grace and grace/mercy is never obligated. No one
deserves to have the Holy Creator living inside them for all of eternity...and that awesome reality will
not be hidden in the afterlife (that we were undeserving). But back to logical ownership/stewardship.
I think it is important to recognize that slavery is a good thing when your Slave Master is Perfect and
perfectly made you for a purpose...to glorify His Holy Son and become adopted out of a perishing world.
Now you are no longer just a slave but an adopted child...but still everything you own is ultimately
owned by God and good stewardship is required. Surrendering all that you think you own to the One
Who already owns it is the perspective of a wise servant.

[Homer]

Breckmin wrote:

It is unwise to use anything of God's for dishonorable use.

Yes, and perhaps this is one way, and perhaps the main way, we steward our possessions - by not using them sinfully. By lending something someone wants to borrow. By not using the computer to watch bad stuff, etc.

Now you are no longer just a slave but an adopted child...but still everything you own is ultimately
owned by God and good stewardship is required. Surrendering all that you think you own to the One
Who already owns it is the perspective of a wise servant.

Agreed, but we have much that God probably is neutral on, that He has no practical use for. Right after posting last night I thought of an example pertinent to this, more so than Peter's eating ice cream. I went out to feed our cat. How do we justify having pets? There is an expense involved (well, not if you are poor; as a child our cats got nothing but food scraps and thrived on it) so the money could be used for something better. Doesn't seem possible God can be served by my having a cat.