Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

If "all" is literal as you say, it must necessarily include Satan and his angels, as your great universalist forebear Origen taught. If not, please show us how you exegete Colossians 1:20.

Matthew 25:46 is a straightforward statement, easy of understanding. Consult the commentaries on Colossians 1:20 and see how many different opinions you find. Then tell us which should guide in interpretation of the other.


If Satan was created from the beginning as a tester of man which is what Steve G. believes then what would be so outrageous about him being saved in the lake of fire.
The fact is that making a plural out of something that is finite does'nt make it into something that is eternal. Aion is an age and pluralizing it does'nt make it eternal. It is IMO a period of time determined by God that could be anything including eternal if that's what God wills.
Re your Phileon 15 example , "aionios" applies to the rest of the man's life not to eternity.
As far as greek scholars go , how they interpret "aionios" will be greatly influenced by their likely view of eternal torment.

[Guest]

Frankly, Derek, your post was more full of mocking than it had questions. But I will give you an answer anyway.

I can assure you Todd, that my post was not meant to mock you at all, but was to contrast your interpretation with what the passage actually says. They are very different, to say the least. My apologies if I sounded mean. I mean no offense.


God bless,

[Guest]

Secondly, I think you are saying that, because it is written in a future tense, it must not have happened yet. Think of this. It can be said of my employer....

"He will give to every man his wages on the 15th and the 30th of the month."

This is indeed a valid statement that is written in future tense. But, my employer has been doing this for 65 years.

If you were hired on the 13th of the month you would take this to be speaking of a future event though. Just as Paul's audience would have taken this to be future tense. If language is this pliable, how can anyone communicate anything?

I think the passage (as well as 2 Peter chap. 2) is clearly talking about a future event. I don't how it can be shown from the context to mean anything else. We can just agree to disagree I suppose.

It might help me if you could provide some scriptures we agree on, that have things written in the future tense but are talking about a past event. Obviously, these passages are thought, with good reason, to be future by most every Christian, so they don't serve as examples.

I realize, by the way, that there is figurative language in the passage. However, I think that it is figurative language about a future event.

God bless,

[Guest]

Derek,

Here is a follow-up to my post on 2 Thess 1.

From the context we can see that Paul was referring to a specific group of people.

2 Thess 1:6
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Evidently these Christians in Thessalonica were being persecuted in some way. In verse 6 Paul says that these will be repaid with tribulation. This "tribulation", while yet future when Paul spoke of it, is long in the past for us now. Paul then starts speaking in the figurative language. I think that it is likely that Paul was still referring to the same thing; namely, that God would pour out His wrath on those who were persecuting the Thessalonians. And what form did God's wrath take for these people? Did they suffer guilt, shame, or anxiety? Did God give them over to uncleaness, vile passions, or a debased mind? Did the governing authorities come in and put them in prison, or execute them? We don't know, but, whatever their punishment, I believe it happened during their lifetime.

And what about Matt 24:30-31? When Jesus spoke these words the destruction of Jerusalem was still in the future, but, for us, it is long in the past. This is what I mean by my example of my employer paying wages. I will get paid on the 30th, but there have been many similar events in the past. I believe that God pours out his wrath somewhere in the world on a daily basis and will continue to do so until "all things are subdued unto Him" (1 Cor 15:28 ).

Let's take the example of Saddam Hussein. Is his judgment day coming in a few days? Is the wrath of God being poured out on him? Based on Rom 13:1-4 I think we can conclude the answer is yes. As of today his judgment is still future, but it won't be long until it is history. And what happens to Saddam after he dies? Does his soul go to torment? Does he sleep until the resurrection and then face another judgment only to be punished forever? Does he get annihilated? Or do Paul's words apply to him?

Rom 6:7
He that is dead is freed from sin.

God knows the answer. We can only search the scriptures and try to figure it out.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

I see what you mean now. I don't agree. But I do understand how you are interpreting it now.

I must admit, I have to interpret "day and nitght forever and ever" figuratively in Rev. 20:10, which many would say is as bad as what you do with this and 2 Peter 3.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I still take this to mean God's eternal judgement in the future however, which lines up with the 2 Thes. and 2 Peter 3 passages.

.......

The passage in question says that those that "know not God, and obey not the Gospel" will be punished with "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord."

I am not mocking you here, but I am wondering how you get temporary judgement from "everlasting destruction"? I think you will say that "everlasting" is a quality not a duration. Fair enough. However....

The passage also says that they will suffer "everlasting destruction from His presence", but you think that they will have everlasting life in His presence (when they die). That's the exact opposite of all that "everlasting destruction from His presence" could mean, taken as figurative or literal.

As for the passage being about a future (to them) event only directed at the persecuters of the Thessalonians, I think that Paul is speaking of a time when not only the Thesalonian's persecuters will be recompensed, but also those that are persecuting Paul and the "us" mentioned in vs.7 will be as well; resulting in "rest" from "troubles" for them all. I think that the judgement is directed at all who "know not God, and obey not the gospel"... in contrast with "all them that believe" in vs.10 who will admire Jesus when He comes.

The context of the whole book leads me to believe he is talking about a universal event as well. The context is that of a church who thinks that Jesus will return anytime, some members of which are not working because they think this (3:11). This is further proof that Paul is speaking of a future time when not only Jesus comes back (1:7), but who will "gather them together" (2:1), which day will not come until certain things happen (2:3), after which Jesus will "consume/destroy" the "wicked" with the "appearence of His coming" (2:8).

And what about Matt 24:30-31? When Jesus spoke these words the destruction of Jerusalem was still in the future, but, for us, it is long in the past. This is what I mean by my example of my employer paying wages. I will get paid on the 30th, but there have been many similar events in the past. I believe that God pours out his wrath somewhere in the world on a daily basis and will continue to do so until "all things are subdued unto Him" (1 Cor 15:28 ).

This is different. It was future to them (Jesus' audience for Matt 24). If this passage (2 Thes) is not only about the local persecters of the Thessalonians, but about all of those that "know not God and obey not the Gospel" then Paul is speaking of somthing that began in the past at Pentacost (if I understand your position) as if it were future.

Let's take the example of Saddam Hussein. Is his judgment day coming in a few days? Is the wrath of God being poured out on him? Based on Rom 13:1-4 I think we can conclude the answer is yes. As of today his judgment is still future, but it won't be long until it is history.

But to speak of his judgement (civil judgement) as if it's in the future after it's happened would be absurd.

And what happens to Saddam after he dies? Does his soul go to torment? Does he sleep until the resurrection and then face another judgment only to be punished forever? Does he get annihilated? Or do Paul's words apply to him?

I have only recently considered what happens to those that die before the judgement. I am not sure to be honest. I will have to get back to you on that.

Rom 6:7
He that is dead is freed from sin.

I am not sure how this applies to Saddam, unless you think Paul is talking about somone being freed from sin when they physically die. The context is that of conversion. Being "baptized into His (Chirst's) death" not physical death. Paul is speaking of people who became "obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed" (vs. 17), not mass murderers who "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Eph. 5:21).

God bless,

[Guest]

Derek,

You make some very good points. And, of course, you could be right. The whole point of this is to see if the scriptures can be interpreted in a different way which is more in line (and makes more common sense) with the nature of God shown to us through Christ. I will comment on a few of the things you said.

The passage also says that they will suffer "everlasting destruction from His presence", but you think that they will have everlasting life in His presence (when they die). That's the exact opposite of all that "everlasting destruction from His presence" could mean, taken as figurative or literal.

The passage does not say "away from" His presence. I think it could be interpreted to mean "as a result of" His presence. In other words, the Lord will bring his punishment upon them. The words "everlasting destruction" could be taken figuratively to mean "severe punishment."

As for the passage being about a future (to them) event only directed at the persecuters of the Thessalonians, I think that Paul is speaking of a time when not only the Thesalonian's persecuters will be recompensed, but also those that are persecuting Paul and the "us" mentioned in vs.7 will be as well; resulting in "rest" from "troubles" for them all. I think that the judgement is directed at all who "know not God, and obey not the gospel"... in contrast with "all them that believe" in vs.10 who will admire Jesus when He comes.

I would agree that the same punishment that was visited upon the Thessalonian persecuters will be visited upon all those who, "know not God, and obey not the gospel." But it doesn't necessarily follow that this punishment will happen after they die. As I said, God pours out His wrath daily somewhere in the world.

The context of the whole book leads me to believe he is talking about a universal event as well. The context is that of a church who thinks that Jesus will return anytime, some members of which are not working because they think this (3:11). This is further proof that Paul is speaking of a future time when not only Jesus comes back (1:7), but who will "gather them together" (2:1), which day will not come until certain things happen (2:3), after which Jesus will "consume/destroy" the "wicked" with the "appearence of His coming" (2:8).

I do believe there is a universal event still yet in the future. This event is the second coming of Christ. What will happen on that Day? It could be that the evil men who are still alive at His coming will be punished severely "as a result of" His presence (or coming). This punishment may even result in their terrifying death. But it doesn't necessarily follow that there is any punishment after the resurrection. We do know one thing for sure - "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). This means that, immeditately prior to the resurrection, Christ will have no more enemies except death itself. This will clear the way for all of mankind to be resurrected - not as enemies - but as those who are saved from death by the grace of God.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

Rom 6:7
He that is dead is freed from sin.

I am not sure how this applies to Saddam, unless you think Paul is talking about somone being freed from sin when they physically die.

Couldn't Paul be saying, "just as those who are physically dead are freed from sin, those also who are dead in Christ through Baptism are freed also?" I think this is a possible interpretation. But let's pursue this thought a little further.....

What motivates people to sin? John said that it is, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16). So, when we die, aren't these sin motivators destroyed? And if, in our lifetime, God has seen to it that we reaped what we sowed and has punished us appropriately when we sinned, that someone could be freed from sin at death? I think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.

Todd

[Guest]

God has seen to it that we reaped what we sowed and has punished us appropriately when we sinned, that someone could be freed from sin at death? I think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.

Todd, Does'nt the bible say that sin brings pleasure for a season. So people are not punished when they sin because the reason sin is so tempting is because it brings temporal pleasure.
The whole theme of overcoming is to learn to look past the temporal pleasures of giving in to our lusts because it brings IM , otherwise known as immediate gratification.
And if someone continually lives a life of sin they will reap what they sow but God's judgement will be after the resurrection.

[Guest]

God has seen to it that we reaped what we sowed and has punished us appropriately when we sinned, that someone could be freed from sin at death? I think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.

Todd, Does'nt the bible say that sin brings pleasure for a season. So people are not punished when they sin because the reason sin is so tempting is because it brings temporal pleasure.
The whole theme of overcoming is to learn to look past the temporal pleasures of giving in to our lusts because it brings IM , otherwise known as immediate gratification.
And if someone continually lives a life of sin they will reap what they sow but God's judgement will be after the resurrection.

Steve,

Yes, the Bible does say that sin can bring pleasure for a season. But this is a worldly pleasure and will lead to misery if we become engulfed by it, which is what I believe we are taught in Romans Chapter 1. That is why we are warned against it. Notice that the pleasure lasts only "for a season." Once it progresses to the point of misery it becomes God's punishment against us because he will not prevent it from happening. When Paul says that God "gives us over" to uncleaness, vile passions, and a debased mind, it means (to me) that He allows the sin to "run its course" and, in so doing, we reap what we sow. This happens during our lifetime.

Todd

[Guest]

I just re-read Romans 1. i dont think it says that people living in sin are necessarily in "misery." it says they "receive in themselves the due penalty of their perversion" but i dont think they are necessarily conscious of this. it means, to me, that they are going to reap what they sow, whether they know it now or not. they are "storing up their penalty" which will ultimately be executed in full at a future judgment. once again, it is possible that they may incur some actual conscious penalty, but generally not enough to qualify as "hell on earth."

TK

[Guest]

Isaiah 25:6-8
6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. 7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The Lord has spoken.

Having been raised in an ultra-conservative fellowship in which hell was reality but personal expression was not, I am ernestly seeking truth. The preacher taught that just one unforgiven sin, however small, would send one straight to hell (that one sin could be wearing pants instead of a skirt.) However, not one of my children could ever do anything to make me love him less. Where did this unconditional love come from? Does God love any one of His children less than I love mine? If Christianity is indeed true, then doesn't every person matter? Why did some Christians kill those refusing to accept Christ during the Inquisition? Was it because they believed God would do infinitely worse during the hereafter? Was the killing justified to save others? Wouldn't the eternal torment of just one soul equate to more suffering than all humanity since the world began? I know these are rhetorical questions, but I am desperately seeking some real answers. Thanks to each of you for sharing your wisdom and insights. FOF, I am soaking up your words like a dry sponge. You put into words what I've felt in my spirit for a long time. . . I just didn't want to listen until now.