Unconditional vs Conditional Immortality

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:59 pm

Steve7150,

You Wrote:
So i know of nothing in scripture that prohibits our judgment at death from being a process or probationary period of punishment but also purification that may reconcile most and maybe even "all" eventually back to God.
While the question is being discussed in a philosophical/speculative vein, perhaps you might consider why we are here in this life at all? Why did God not bypass all the suffering here and go straight to the final solution, if there is any? Most people that have existed throughout history have lived rather miserable lives. What's the purpose if nothing is determined here? According to the Universalists eternal life is no more certain than eternal punishment.
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:16 pm

Greetings in 2008,

This post, to acknowledge CThomas (I saw your reply), thank you.

I'm currently involved with getting my new blog going...and haven't discussed
or debated universalism for about a month (not really interested right now, etc., etc.).

Anyways, Happy New Year all, :) Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

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_Mort_Coyle
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:51 pm

Homer,
While the question is being discussed in a philosophical/speculative vein, perhaps you might consider why we are here in this life at all? Why did God not bypass all the suffering here and go straight to the final solution, if there is any?
That's an interesting question Homer, and one that isn't particular to Christian Universalism. I'm curious to know what you think the answer is.
Most people that have existed throughout history have lived rather miserable lives. What's the purpose if nothing is determined here? According to the Universalists eternal life is no more certain than eternal punishment.
As a Christian Universalist, I believe a great deal is determined during this life. What we do in this life echoes in eternity (I think that's a line from the movie Gladiator, but I believe it's true nonetheless).
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_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:30 am

Paidion wrote: 1 Timothy 6:16 [God] alone has immortality...

This being the case, how can man have an "immortal soul"?
I would say that one has an immortal soul only after salvation. Once you attach yourself to Christ, you share in his life.
Paidion wrote: 2Timothy 1:8-10 Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God,
who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


Through the gospel, death has been abolished. But people still die. The abolishment of death has not yet come into effect.

Through the gospel, life and immortality have been brought to light. But no one yet possesses immortality.

Jesus Himself was born into this world and died. He was not immortal.
People still die physically, however Jesus stated:

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.


So in some sense we don't die even when our body does.

2 Peter 1:13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Peter seemed to suggest that he was "in" his "tent" and will soon put it off at his decease. Sounds like his tent what something he lived in, not something that constituted his entire self. And when he died he was leaving the tent, to be clothed again one day in the future, of course. This is at very least a possible meaning of his words.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:25 pm

Sean wrote:People still die physically, however Jesus stated:

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.


So in some sense we don't die even when our body does.
Did Jesus say, "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die"? If so, He contradicted what He had just finished saying:

..."he who believes in me, though he has died, yet shall he live."

Here Jesus indicated that people believe in Him and die! Or do you suppose that He changed the meaning of "die" in the same sentence?
Did the first "die" refer to the physical death" and the second "die" refer to the death of the soul? I don't think so.

What Jesus actually said was " He who lives and believes [or "trusts"] in me shall no way die into the age." Or let "into the age" mean "forever" if you wish.

He who lives and trusts in me shall no way die forever.

In other words, any living person who trusts in Christ will not die forever (that is "remain dead"). He will be resurrected.

Jesus' whole statement was about the resurrection!

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who trusts in me, though he has died, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and trusts in me shall not die into the [next] age. Do you believe this?

A disciple of Christ though he dies, will be resurrected. A living disciple of Christ may die also, but will not remain dead right into the next age, but will be resurrected at the beginning of the next age when Jesus returns.
2 Peter 1:13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Peter seemed to suggest that he was "in" his "tent" and will soon put it off at his decease. Sounds like his tent what something he lived in, not something that constituted his entire self. And when he died he was leaving the tent, to be clothed again one day in the future, of course. This is at very least a possible meaning of his words.
Yes, Peter and Paul both used this figure of speech ---- as if one is occupying his body as a person might occupy a tent. However, I don't think one can use this figure of speech to establish a dichotomous or trichotomous view of man.

As is recorded in I Cor 15, Paul stated that at the resurrection "this mortal must put on immortality." That is the time when Christ's disciples will become immortal ---- not at the moment they trust in Him.
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:41 pm

While the question is being discussed in a philosophical/speculative vein, perhaps you might consider why we are here in this life at all? Why did God not bypass all the suffering here and go straight to the final solution, if there is any? Most people that have existed throughout history have lived rather miserable lives. What's the purpose if nothing is determined here? According to the




Homer, God said "knowing good and evil they have become like us" so apprently to become like God we must know evil. I'm sure we both agree that from our perspective we know more evil then we care to know. But i don't have any real understanding why we need to know evil to become like God so i just have to trust God on that.
Also it could be that evil can't be destroyed until it fully ripens which was why God waited so long to judge the Cananites and perhaps why God does'nt intervene more to vanquish evil in our life.
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