If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Singalphile » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:54 am

It does seem impossible not to act based on motivations, unless a person is insane (irrational).

Jesus said (Matthew 16 NASB):
"24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life [or soul] will lose it; but whoever loses his life [or soul] for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay [or recompense] every man according to his deeds [literally doing]."
A person must deny himself in this life. But Jesus also appeals to self preservation. He also points out that deeds will be recompensed.

All Christian views believe in the just punishment of wicked deeds, I think. I guess (or hope) that the person in the OP was just immature, and was writing hastily and thoughtlessly, but it's probably good for him to be correctly presented with his options.

The flip side of this is that some professing Christians have (probably) said that if they believed that God does punish people permanently and/or perpetually, then they would denounce God. These are reasons why I think that this "hell" topic is more important than other theological curiosities.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:11 am

My kindness to my wife and children could easily bring happiness and benefits to me (though this has not always proved to be the case). Nonetheless, if it is these benefits alone (or even primarily) that induce me to love them, then I am a mercenary, not someone who loves.

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:31 am

Steve,

I'm having a hard time thinking of an example of your approach (that avoiding sin is only associated with loving God, not avoiding punishment) from the Apostles' advice to people in scripture. For instance, in Hebrews 10 we see an admonition not to fall back into sin, thus turning from Christ. It is coupled tightly with the idea that to do so will result in punishment,

24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This example seems to be the standard way that the Apostles admonished people on sin. It seems to me that your approach would require a completely different set of advice. Can you find an example outside of the gospels (I'm not granting your argument there, but I'm more interested in how the material there is played out in real life) where your approach is used?

Doug

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:38 am

If I were asked, "If there was no heaven, would you still lay down your life for your children?" It is simple to answer truthfully: "Of course! I do not serve my children because of my hope of heaven. I serve them because I love them."
Not sure that is a good analogy. Even house cats will die to defend their kittens.

Paul seems to have had a problem. Took a supernatural confrontation with the Lord to save him then he wrote this:

1 Corinthians 15:32, New King James Version (NKJV)

32. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”


Jesus certainly presented folks with many threats and warnings, so did the apostles. I think they knew what they were doing.

User avatar
jeremiah
Posts: 339
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:58 pm
Location: Mount Carroll, IL
Contact:

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by jeremiah » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:26 am

Hello Homer,
Paul seems to have had a problem. Took a supernatural confrontation with the Lord to save him then he wrote this:

1 Corinthians 15:32, New King James Version (NKJV)

32. If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”

Jesus certainly presented folks with many threats and warnings, so did the apostles. I think they knew what they were doing.
Do you mean to suggest that Paul was basically saying that if the dead rise not then God is not real and so then let's party?
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:51 am

I hope that statement is indeed not impossible to refute, for then it may be impossible to disabuse me of this error.
When I said that the interviewer's statement was impossible to refute, I wasn't speaking of it being impossible in reality. I mean it was impossible because of the interviewer's attitude.

An analogy is the case of the once-saved—always-saved people. Having been one of them in the past, I know their technique well. You cannot bring up a counter-example which will convince them. If you bring up the case of Simon the magician who "believed and was baptized" (Acts 8:13), and who later (according to early Christian history) went back to his old ways, claiming to be God, and taking a woman around with him whom he claimed he had "begotten", they simply respond that Simon was not really saved in the first place. "Yes, he believed. But what did he believe? Yes, he was baptized, but that doesn't save you."

Or you might bring up the case of Charles Templeton, who preached the gospel for years together with Billy Graham. One day, he told Billy Graham that he was no longer a Christian. Mr. Graham had a long talk with him to try to restore him, but Charles said, "Billy, I appreciate your kindness and your concern for me, but I just don't believe that stuff anymore." But the OSAS person says that Charles never was a true Christian. "The fact that he preached the gospel doesn't prove that he was a Christian. A non-Christian can learn to preach the gospel, too." If you ask them how they know Templeton never was a Christian, they respond, "The very fact that he turned away from it proves that he never was!" Thus it is impossible to refute a OSAS position; it doesn't matter how many examples you supply of Christians permanently turning away from the Lord. They can explain away any scripture you bring forth to the contrary. I once did exactly that. I had to be struck to the heart before I was able to repent of that false teaching. It was the words of some of the early Christian writers that struck me to the heart.

So the interviewer in his opinion that Mother Theresa, in serving others, was really serving herself cannot be refuted. For no matter what example of altruism one might bring forth, the interviewer would declare it a self-serving act, and the proof (to him) is the mere fact that the person was engaging in altruistic acts—just as the proof for the OASAS person that a person who turns away from God permanently, was never saved in the first place, is the mere fact that he turned away from God permanently.

So, the thought that it is impossible to become a Christian without a self-serving motive, seems to be in the same class of thinking as that of Mother Theresa's interviewer. However, Christ made no allowance for self-service in his requirements for discipleship. He said, "Unless you forsake all and follow me, you CANNOT be my disciple." (Luke 14:33)

But again, you may ask, "Why would anyone ever wish to become Christ's disciple, if there were nothing in it for him?" I can only answer that it it Christ Himself, and only Christ, who draws him—His love, His beauty, His majesty, His very BEING!

Yes, there are many scriptures which tell of the wonderful results and rewards for those who become Christ's disciples. But a person doesn't become a disciple in order to obtain these rewards. He becomes a disciple only in order to serve Christ.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:28 pm

Hi Jeremiah,
Do you mean to suggest that Paul was basically saying that if the dead rise not then God is not real and so then let's party?
Not quite. I am suggesting Paul believed in God, but if there is no resurrection, then lets party.

Lenksi wrote concerning Paul's statement:

"If death ends all, life has really little more to offer than eating and drinking, creature comforts like those of the brute."

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:49 pm

"If death ends all, life has really little more to offer than eating and drinking, creature comforts like those of the brute."
Apparently Lenski had not heard (from Paul) that following Christ provides (in this life) "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" and "peace that passes understanding," which "keeps your heart and mind in Christ," nor had he heard (from Peter) about the joy unspeakable, and full of glory. It seems that those who know these experiences are several notches above the unbeliever in this-life advantages, whether or not there is another life. Paul did not have the kind of tunnel vision you describe.

I have never said that Paul never took stock of the eternal benefits of salvation. However, if someone loves God, he will serve Christ with or without those benefits. This doesn't mean he will not appreciate them. It seems that there are some who either have never loved anyone disinterestedly, or who have never recognized that this is the only species of love worthy of God.

Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 15 was that the belief in resurrection was part and parcel of the gospel message itself. If the resurrection was not true, then the gospel is not true (vv.12-17). Therefore, if we have only hope in this life (i.e., there is no resurrection), then Jesus lied and the gospel is a hoax. Why then face torture and death for a false message?

In any case, Paul is not arguing against partying on the basis of avoiding hell (as per the original post). If there is no resurrection, then the dead are dead, and hell is not an issue. The idea, "If hell is not eternal torment, then let's party!" doesn't connect with Paul's argument at any point.

Paul does assume that the person he is debating is lacking in normative Christian doctrine and experience. Such people truly do think only of themselves. On that basis, Paul can argue that his way of life (the Christian way) is futile if the doctrine of the resurrection (its central claim) is false. If Jesus is dead, then there is no reason to obey, please, or get to know him. None of the Christian joy, peace or hope is genuine. Paul argues: "Why be a Christian, if Jesus is dead?" Good question! If there is no Jesus, then let's party!

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:49 pm

Paidion wrote:So the interviewer in his opinion that Mother Theresa, in serving others, was really serving herself cannot be refuted. For no matter what example of altruism one might bring forth, the interviewer would declare it a self-serving act, and the proof (to him) is the mere fact that the person was engaging in altruistic acts—just as the proof for the OASAS person that a person who turns away from God permanently, was never saved in the first place, is the mere fact that he turned away from God permanently.
I'm sorry to say*** I just cannot see it otherwise. I agree with the interviewers position on this. Mother Theresa had a choice to make and acted according to her values. She valued the state of affairs where she was deprived of certain particular comforts of life and assisted others, to the state of affairs that would be if she would avail herself of those comforts and forgo the giving assistance to others. This is not "selfish" - but it is most certainly acting with "self interest", for she was doing exactly what it is that she wanted to do.

The same idea holds for the examples from personal experience that Mr. Gregg has given. Mr. Gregg's examples affirm that he is able to act so as to do exactly what it is that he wants to do - absolute self denial is impossible. The difference between Mr. Gregg and the man I described in the opening post is that their scales of values are on opposite extremes of the spectrum.

What has me quite perplexed, however, is that if God requires us to be willing to serve him in the absence of both rewards and punishments, then why is it that He has revealed to us that such exist? Does it not significantly hinder a man from making an honest assessment of his spiritual condition?

*** I mean that quite sincerely.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:43 pm

Thrombomodulin, you wrote:Mother Theresa had a choice to make and acted according to her values. She valued the state of affairs where she was deprived of certain particular comforts of life and assisted others, to the state of affairs that would be if she would avail herself of those comforts and forgo the giving assistance to others. This is not "selfish" - but it is most certainly acting with "self interest", for she was doing exactly what it is that she wanted to do.
I don't think Mother Theresa thought at all about what her values were or what she wanted to do in order to feel good about herself; she thought only about the needs of other people and how she could meet those needs.
You also wrote:What has me quite perplexed, however, is that if God requires us to be willing to serve him in the absence of both rewards and punishments, then why is it that He has revealed to us that such exist?
To make us aware of the icing on the cake. Knowing human nature as God does, He doubtless was aware that this would be an additional incentive for some.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Post Reply

Return to “Views of Hell”