Talbott's Presentation

[Homer]

Talbott brought up a good point in that the sinners in hell are experiencing refining punishment which destroys the sin within them. God ordained for the consequences of sin to bring about a point of surrender of the will. God is therefore working on the sinner in hell and drawing him to Himself.

And the scripture that informs us of this is.............?

Is God unable to persuade a sinner in hell?

"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

I hear tell that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever mentioned hell in an attempt to win even one soul and yet it will convert many more than Jesus' death and resurrection ever could. Hell will work wonders that the gospel, "the power unto salvation", never could. Hell must be the real "good news" to all who go there and also to their loved ones that don't.

In this life, a parent sometimes exerts a strong influence on his/her teenager. If the teenager persists in a certain activity, the parent grounds him/her. But this influence doesn't make the teenager cease the activity. In other words, parents' strong influence do not cause their teenager to behave as desired. But what if the parents have the power to ground their teenager for a day, two days, a week, a month, etc. With time, the teenager is more likely to concur with his/her parents' wishes. They are not caused to concur, of course. They simply want to avoid the grounding. Theoretically they could continue the activity of which the parents disapprove for an indefinite time. But the longer they are grounded regularly, the more likely the teens are to comply.

And maybe they will just become more angry and stubborn. When my brother was just a boy of about 8 years old he threw all the potatoes out of the potato bin in the cellar. Dad told him to pick them up and he refused. Got a whipping (in those days when you were real bad, it meant the dreaded razor strap). Got whipped some more. Still refused. Whipped again, and again refused. Dad finally gave up; no amount of whipping persuaded an 8 year old. Some people get that way.

Telling thread, though. OP with several scriptures cited and none in the following posts.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Talbott brought up a good point in that the sinners in hell are experiencing refining punishment which destroys the sin within them. God ordained for the consequences of sin to bring about a point of surrender of the will. God is therefore working on the sinner in hell and drawing him to Himself.

And the scripture that informs us of this is.............?

Talbott made this side comment in a discussion about the annihilationist understanding of destruction. He quoted 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 to prove that destruction does not always speak of the individual being destroyed, but the sin within them being destroyed.

In verse five, Paul says that the destruction of this man's flesh will result in the salvation of his soul on the last day. This can be interpreted in other ways, but a universalist reading is acceptable in my opinion. Sin is therefore destroyed, not the sinner.

Is God unable to persuade a sinner in hell?

"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

All this verse informs us is that in their earthly life they would not be persuaded. It doesn't necessarily follow that they may never be persuaded at a later time (as in postmortem).

I hear tell that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever mentioned hell in an attempt to win even one soul and yet it will convert many more than Jesus' death and resurrection ever could. Hell will work wonders that the gospel, "the power unto salvation", never could. Hell must be the real "good news" to all who go there and also to their loved ones that don't.

Im not exactly sure how God will offer postmortem opportunities, but it's not going to be apart from the good news that Christ is King. Surely that fact will not be left out.

Telling thread, though. OP with several scriptures cited and none in the following posts.

I would love to hear you give an explanation of why the Scriptures in proposition two should be rejected, Homer. My assumption was that free will would be a stumbling block to why one would want to accept it, if there are more reasons to reject it I'd like to hear them. I can't seem to find any other reasons... That is why our discussion went in that direction.

But Here is a scripture for you:

Quite a simple concept. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. All are lost because of sin, every human being. If most people end up separated from God forever, is Jesus incapable of succeeding in His most important mission? And if so, why does the Bible speak of the cross as a redemptive triumph and victory if it failed to succeed?

[mattrose]

Now of course, people are not cardboard disks. Unlike the disks, people have free will. But the principle is the same. There was an influence on the disks, and there will be an influence, God's influence, on the lost. It is impractical that any will hold out forever, and thus I am convinced that, sooner or later, all will be reconciled to God.

After reading your entire post... I would still categorize you as a "hopeful universal reconciliationist"

Just a very optimistic one

I still think it falls short of dogmatic universalism... and it is only that position that I consider logically inconsistent with free will/open theism.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Just a very optimistic one...

Works for me for the time being!

[Paidion]

After reading your entire post... I would still categorize you as a "hopeful universal reconciliationist"
Just a very optimistic one

Okay. But what about the cardboard disks? Suppose the operator's intention was to get all the disks to stick to the bottom of the box by tossing them. Will they eventually all stick to the bottom? Or is the operator merely a "hopeful universal stickorist"? After all, it is theoretically possible that some of the disks never will stick to the bottom.

[mattrose]

After reading your entire post... I would still categorize you as a "hopeful universal reconciliationist"
Just a very optimistic one

Okay. But what about the cardboard disks? Suppose the operator's intention was to get all the disks to stick to the bottom of the box by tossing them. Will they eventually all stick to the bottom? Or is the operator merely a "hopeful universal stickorist"? After all, it is theoretically possible that some of the disks never will stick to the bottom.

The problem with the analogy, in my opinion, is that the cardboard disks remain neutral throughout the procedure. Each time the disks are flipped, there is a 50% chance it will land on the sticky side. So it makes sense that they eventually will. But when dealing with people, we are not dealing with static entities. People are either moving toward or away from God. So, in many cases, the person will slowly be brought to repentance. But in other cases, the person could actually be moving further away from God (grinding their teeth in rebellion). The point is... it's not 50/50 each time. People are never in neutral.

[Paidion]

Matt, you are right, of course, about the 50% thing. But in the case of people, is there some chance that any of them might repent under particular conditions? Maybe as small as .0000001% in some cases? If so, then however small the probability, they WILL repent given an infinite amount of time. I just can't believe that there are people for whom it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent. If all people possess free will, then there must be some chance, no matter how slim, that each of them might repent. And if that is the case, then they will repent at some point in the endless ages to come.

If the probability of someone ever repenting were 0%, that would seem to imply that the person did NOT have free will. For if he did possess free will, he might choose to repent.

[steve7150]

People are either moving toward or away from God. So, in many cases, the person will slowly be brought to repentance. But in other cases, the person could actually be moving further away from God (grinding their teeth in rebellion). The point is... it's not 50/50 each time. People are never in neutral.









In this age humans have a sin nature and in addition Satan is the god of this age, but in the next age Satan will be gone and will the unsaved be left with their sin nature?
I am speculating but the destruction of Satan may also be symbolic of the destruction of our sin nature in the next age and then it may be the time when every knee will bow both on the earth and under the earth as Paul said.

[mattrose]

Paidion...

I feel like you are coming at the issue in 2 different ways

But in the case of people, is there some chance that any of them might repent under particular conditions? Maybe as small as .0000001% in some cases? I just can't believe that there are people for whom it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent. If all people possess free will, then there must be some chance, no matter how slim, that each of them might repent.

This part of your quote is clearly true, but doesn't make your point. It definitely is POSSIBLE for them to repent. All they have to do is make the decision to do it. There IS a CHANCE. They MIGHT repent. Indeed!

If so, then however small the probability, they WILL repent given an infinite amount of time.... And if that is the case, then they will repent at some point in the endless ages to come.

But here, in my opinion, you slip back into the logical fallacy created by your analogy. It's not a matter of how many opportunities they have, it's a matter of if they ever start moving in the direction of repentance at all (and don't quickly resist). It feels to me like your analogy makes us too much like robots. Eventually God will push the right button ("under particular conditions") and our repentance will get turned on. But I don't believe we have automatic responses to stimuli in such matters. That's what libertarian free will is all about. We can do otherwise.

If the probability of someone ever repenting were 0%, that would seem to imply that the person did NOT have free will. For if he did possess free will, he might choose to repent.

The possibility is never at 0%. The person is free to repent. He might choose to do so. But, he need not. That's the very definition of libertarian free will. And that's why, as far as my understanding can take me, libertarian free will cannot be reconciled to dogmatic universal reconciliation. It can, however, be reconciled to hopeful universal reconciliation and optimistic universal reconciliation.

[mattrose]

In this age humans have a sin nature and in addition Satan is the god of this age, but in the next age Satan will be gone and will the unsaved be left with their sin nature? I am speculating but the destruction of Satan may also be symbolic of the destruction of our sin nature in the next age and then it may be the time when every knee will bow both on the earth and under the earth as Paul said.

This paragraph raises all sorts of questions in my mind

1. On what grounds do you dogmatically state that Satan will not exist in the lake of fire?
2. Why should I follow your speculation that the sin nature will be destroyed?
3. What does that even mean? Will God rip it out? Is that God's way?
4. If you believe Satan will be annihilated, doesn't that mean "All" doesn't always mean "All"?
5. If "all" doesn't always mean "all," haven't you cut off the major argument of the universal reconciliation position?

But I know it is sometimes frustrating when someone answers a question with a series of other questions. So I will also respond to your basic point (that in Hell.. the next age so far as it concerns the wicked... the things that pull us toward sin in this present age will be removed).

As I understand it, the things that pull us toward sin in this age are threefold: 1) Satan 2) Our fallen nature 3) Our world... peer pressure, so to speak.

I could argue, I think, that Satan's attack will be even stronger in hell. That our fallen nature will be in its most mature (immature?) form. And that the peer pressure will be even greater (might we be surrounded by the worst of the worst?). In other words, there is at least a strong possibility that the 3 factors pulling us toward sin will be even stronger in hell. That is, perhaps, why God's method to pull us toward him is so drastic in that place!