Universalism & Eph 1:9-11

[Todd]

If the passage can read either way then wouldn't you lean on stronger scriptures than these?

It is my opinion that the natural reading of these particular scriptures is the way I presented them; although, many people have reasoned a way to understand them differently.

And here is a question I haven't seen anyone ask yet; when Jesus sits on the throne in Matthew 25 to deal out rewards and punishment, along with little simple statements like the one found in 1 Peter 1:17, Rom 2:6, etc, it seems that the opportunity to gain immortality is strictly limited to this mortal life.

Christ took his seat at God's right hand as soon as He ascended to heaven. Since then He has been sitting in judgment and will continue in this mode until "his enemies be made his footstool." Those who are overcome in sin reap what they sow: guilt, shame, contempt, anxiety, fear, and corruption. This is God's divine punishment as He rewards them according to their works. All of God's punishments are proportional and limited. Conversely, those who follow Christ in faith are rewarded with the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

And likewise, what is the use of the statement of "be faithful until death" if death is not the cutoff. I don't understand why two seconds after death one can't repent when four seconds prior was okay. But I also think that a lot of the statements about the deeds done in the flesh are now ambiguous if death is not the cutoff. Of all the explanations I haven't heard any good ones for those and similar verses.

Although I believe the Father is looking for any reason to save someone, so the doctrine is attractive. I just can't make the leap. I've read them in Greek and in English and I just don't see it without doing damage to the text.

Acts 3:20-21
20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Here's the main point. There is coming a time when Christ will restore all things. He has reconciled the whole world unto Himself. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father.

Todd

[smcllr3]

smcllr3 wrote:If the passage can read either way then wouldn't you lean on stronger scriptures than these?



It is my opinion that the natural reading of these particular scriptures is the way I presented them; although, many people have reasoned a way to understand them differently.

Sure. However, if your natural understanding were incorrect and theirs was correct, it would seem that you were reasoning a way to understand them in an arbitrary way. So what I am saying is if you are incorrect, it is not established by these scriptures. So why not present the scriptures that present a compelling argument for the view.

But I'm only suggesting because I haven't found any. Which you already know that because I said as much, anyway.

smcllr3 wrote:And here is a question I haven't seen anyone ask yet; when Jesus sits on the throne in Matthew 25 to deal out rewards and punishment, along with little simple statements like the one found in 1 Peter 1:17, Rom 2:6, etc, it seems that the opportunity to gain immortality is strictly limited to this mortal life.



Christ took his seat at God's right hand as soon as He ascended to heaven. Since then He has been sitting in judgment and will continue in this mode until "his enemies be made his footstool." Those who are overcome in sin reap what they sow: guilt, shame, contempt, anxiety, fear, and corruption. This is God's divine punishment as He rewards them according to their works. All of God's punishments are proportional and limited. Conversely, those who follow Christ in faith are rewarded with the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

That doesn't seem to be the natural reading of Matthew 25. Well I agree with the first part, mostly. It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong,
-the sheep and the goats are at the end of their life because they are looking back on their life recalling the collection of their deeds.

-And there are not multiple punishments and rewards for individual deeds but one singular reward or punishment, that is apparently eternal, based on the collection of their deeds.

-And it would be hard to say that the fruit of the spirit is the act of our inheriting the kingdom when we are told to walk in the spirit here on earth. They do not seem to be the rewards themselves because the fruit of the spirit is in juxtaposition to the deeds of the flesh in Galatians 5. Then the collection of these fruits are judged whereby we inherit the kingdom or face an indefinite fiery end. So the passage differentiates between the fruit and the inheritance. That seems to be the teaching of the parable in Matthew 25.

My point was this, that nowhere in the bible do you see anything done after death being considered at the judgment. It is always things done on earth.

Acts 3:20-21
20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Here's the main point. There is coming a time when Christ will restore all things. He has reconciled the whole world unto Himself. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father.

There is coming a time when Christ will restore all things...

...spoken of by God through the mouth of prophets.


When you add that last part you add another translation option. And the fact that not one of the prophets ever said that every created thing in the entire kosmos would be restored, it kinda leaves a void that needs the rest of the sentence to make since. "...restore all things spoken of by God through the mouth of the prophets." Now that is limited to something less than "all things" as you rendered it. But if you go to biblegateway dot com and click on keyword search and select NASB as the version then type in the partial word "restor" click search and then thumb through to the prophets, you will notice that "all things spoken of by the prophets" that involve any word that begins with the six letters "r-e-s-t-o-r" are limited to the remnant of Israel and its fortunes. So I think my own understanding has at least one leg to stand on. Maybe.

He has reconciled the whole world unto Himself...

Sure, but after he says that he says, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
It seems to me that what God did through Christ in reconciling the world to himself was that he didn't count their trespasses against them, but it requires our cooperation as well. So if we don't want to be reconciled to God, then what happens? We are anyway? It doesn't seem like that is the implication but that is only my opinion. I'm not sure this is in favor of the Universalist view though.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father.

Yes but... this is like saying, "even the demons believe and shutter" but they are not saved. I don't see the part where it says all will be saved in Phil 2 either. Now that is also my opinion.


Anyway, so yeah. That is just another way of looking at those verses and they, to me at least, seem more correct. I'm no scholar though and you might find a hole in my argument as well. However, when two views can be true, it is better to look for stronger verses.

[smcllr3]

This is a very good verse against universalism as is the reference that few make it through the narrow gate but most Christian universalists see the lake of fire as something more then vengence or punishment.
I could ask the question if death is the final cut-off then why does'nt scripture explicitly state this? It says we all will be judged but the greek word leaves open the possibility of rehabilitation. If it did'nt there would be no viewpoint called Christian Universalism.
'

Nice. But they also have to admit that "judgment" and "lake of fire" are not the only terms used either. There is "destroy" which Jesus used in Matthew 10 for what happens to the soul after the the destruction of the body, and also "perish" which is translated destruction in places like 2 Pet 2:3 which is compared to judgment there.

Also in passages like Mathew 25 he says that the fate of the goats is the fate of the devil and his angels. Is it understood that the devil's punishment is eternal by the Universalist in Matthew 25 and if so, where is the distinction between the temporal punishment of the goats and the eternal punishment of the devil and his angels? How would they answer that? I mean I'm sure they have an answer, I'm just curious to know what it is.

[smcllr3]

I could ask the question if death is the final cut-off then why does'nt scripture explicitly state this?

Oh hey, what about verses like 1 John 5:16 "If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."

Is that a stretch to think that after death your prayers would be ineffective because death might just be the cut off? I guess if you understand John 5:16 to mean what I think it means then you might see it that way but not everyone does.

square one again I guess.

[Todd]

Perhaps the main objection to Universalism is that people think the unfaithful will have no consequences for their sins; however, proponents of Universal Reconciliation make no such claim. Just as the Bible states is true: "every transgression and disobedience will receive its just recompense of reward." This is indeed true. But this does not mean that the punishment is endless - endless punishment is unjust and unbalanced. God's punishment is "according to works," which means big sins receive a greater punishment.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

A careful reading of 1 Cor 15, which outlines events surrounding the resurrection, will show that death is not destroyed until after all His enemies are put under His feet. Just prior to the resurrection Christ has no more enemies. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. It is the resurrection that restores all things. The details of how God deals with the unforgiven sins of the unfaithful is a mystery, but according to Paul, He does. God is the Father of mercies (2 Cor 1:3), and I am confident that this attribute of God's character will play a big role in how He chooses to deal with the sins of man. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Rom 11:32
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Rom 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Todd

[Todd]

In keeping with the Christmas Season, consider the following...

Luke 2:8-11
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

The angel says, "good tidings of great joy which will be to all people." Indeed the birth of the Savior of all people is great news! However, according to the traditional view, only a few people will be saved and the vast majority face endless torment or annihilation; that would be bad news which would bring great sadness. Thanks be to God that Christ is the Savior of the world, which is joyful news.

Todd