Questions for the universalist

[Todd]

If you cannot be forgiven of a sin then you will have to suffer the consequences. The Bible tells us that punishment will be dealt out according to the sin - in other words it is proportional.

I read that again and I now see what you're saying. I think you're saying: That sin will suffer consequences but can ultimately be forgiven. Yes? Is it kind of like going to jail for a time and then let go?

If a man owes a debt of $100 and he pays the debt, is the debt forgiven? No, he has paid the debt. Similarly, if the punishment for a crime is 10 years in prison and he serves the 10 years, he has not been forgiven, he has paid for his crime. Likewise, if a sin cannot be forgiven then the sinner must suffer the consequences. But in every case, I believe, God punishes in proportion to the sin - the punishment is always limited.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Each one will receive "according to what he has done." What one receives is appropriate for the deed, whether good or bad. This is a constant theme; we reap what we sow.

Todd

[steve7150]

Steve1750 wrote:
i would like to add in John 5.29 everyone is raised to either life or condemnation. Therefore no one is physically destroyed forever in this age and the ones who are condemned face judgment. The greek word for judgment is "krisis" from which we get our english word "crisis." A crisis is a time of severe testing which may have a good result , after all don't we grow the most when we get through a crisis? I think the Lake of Fire is this crisis that the great majority of mankind will face it but then in Rev 22.17 we see what may be possible.
"The Bride and the Spirit say , come whosoever thirsts and drink from the water of life." This is 5 verses from the end of the bible and i think God put it there by design as the only folks left are those in the lake of fire if you read sequentially.


That may be true, but that is the equivalent of saying John was taken up in Chapter 4 by design to prove that the church is going to be ruptured before the tribulation. I'm just not sure about stuff like that.

Also... can you address this "severe testing"? How long does it last? What does it involve? What would get you to that point?RV

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Regarding the severe testing , i have no idea except Peter and Paul mention being tried or tested through some type of fire, which i take as metaphorical not literal.
Guessing how long it could take is pure speculation but i don't mind a little speculation. Paidion believes the phrase ages upon ages means millions of years or perhaps the milleneum refers to the time in the lake of fire therefore a thousand years but on the other hand when Paul saw the risen Christ he believed in under a minute. So i think each case will be judged separately and custom designed to ensure that each person reaps what they sowed.

[RV]

Someone brought up a couple of things to me the other day, and I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on it.

Absent from the warning to Adam and Eve and even Cain was eternal fire. Also... absent from God's law was eternal fire.


I wanted to see what you guys think about this. I thought it was a good point on the side of universalist.

[Danny]

Hi RV,

You could pretty much expand that to say eternal fire is absent from the entire Old Testament.

[Paidion]

Not only that, but the expression occurs only 3 times in the New Testament (that is, for those who insist that "αιωνιος" means "eternal" --- twice in Matthew, and once in Jude).

Interestingly the quote from Jude shows that the word does NOT mean "eternal":

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of αιωνιος fire.

Was the fire that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah eternal? If so, then it would qualify as the chief wonder of the world --- fire that is eternal and cannot be quenched.

[RV]

I really think this conversation needs to focus on reconciliation.

Not only that, but the expression occurs only 3 times in the New Testament (that is, for those who insist that "αιωνιος" means "eternal" --- twice in Matthew, and once in Jude).

Interestingly the quote from Jude shows that the word does NOT mean "eternal":

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of αιωνιος fire.

Was the fire that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah eternal? If so, then it would qualify as the chief wonder of the world --- fire that is eternal and cannot be quenched.

That city was destroyed forever yes? I agree that the fire may not have been forever, but it does appear that the punishment itself is.

I suppose at this point it's important to show through scripture not if eternal actually means eternal, but if God will actually reconcile all men to himself.

And I'm not refering to all nations... but actually every single person.

[Paidion]

Well, perhaps we could begin by considering the following passage:

[Christ] is the head of the body, the Assembly; He is the sovereign, the first-born from the dead, that He might be the first in all things. For in him all the Fullness delighted to dwell,
and through him to reconcile THE ALL into Him, whether those on earth or those in heaven, making well-being by the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:19-21

[RV]

Indeed, that might be a good place to start.

[Christ] is the head of the body, the Assembly; He is the sovereign, the first-born from the dead, that He might be the first in all things. For in him all the Fullness delighted to dwell,
and through him to reconcile THE ALL into Him, whether those on earth or those in heaven, making well-being by the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:19-21

Let's also continue reading:

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

1. Let's notice he's speaking to people that have been reconciled.

2. Let's also notice there seems to be a condition to that reconciliation.

Now... the passage doesn't say it's not possible to be reconciled after the body expires. But why the apparent condition? "If indeed you continue in the faith...."

But... it sounds like (according to you) no matter what, wheather you continue in the faith or not, you will be reconciled to Chirst.

Sincerly, I'm just trying to nail this down. Or at least have enough confidence to say this idea of all men being reconciled is possible.

Looking forward to being convinced,

RV

[Paidion]

You seem to be saying that Paul is telling the Colossians that the condition for reconciliation is continuing in the faith. Would you say then, that anyone who has a major slip up (while in this life) is doomed? That he cannot repent and be restored?

Let's examine the passage (just as you quote it) more thoroughly:

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Is he saying that you are reconciled if you continue in the faith? Or is he saying that He will present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if you continue in the faith?

If we do not continue in the faith, we may be in for a severe correction of our character.

But... it sounds like (according to you) no matter what, wheather you continue in the faith or not, you will be reconciled to Chirst.

That is correct. I go much further than that. Even if you have never been in the faith, you will be reconciled!

But please don't misunderstand me. In no way am I suggesting that everyone will be automatically reconciled to God. Each person must repent (have a change of mind and heart) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as you and I have done. If they refuse, they will remain in Gehenna, that place or condition in which the severe mercy of God must be endured ---- until they do repent. Sooner or later they will.

[RV]

You seem to be saying that Paul is telling the Colossians that the condition for reconciliation is continuing in the faith. Would you say then, that anyone who has a major slip up (while in this life) is doomed? That he cannot repent and be restored?

I see your point here; I suppose he could mean this:

Or is he saying that He will present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if you continue in the faith?

Which also can be said this way: If you don't continue in the faith he won't present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

But, that still doesn't mean this:

That is correct. I go much further than that. Even if you have never been in the faith, you will be reconciled!

You haven't come to that belief based on the passage now in discussion.

Nor this:

But please don't misunderstand me. In no way am I suggesting that everyone will be automatically reconciled to God. Each person must repent (have a change of mind and heart) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as you and I have done. If they refuse, they will remain in Gehenna, that place or condition in which the severe mercy of God must be endured ---- until they do repent. Sooner or later they will.

I'm just trying to find out where you come up with:

Even if you have never been in the faith, you will be reconciled

And where do you get this:

But please don't misunderstand me. In no way am I suggesting that everyone will be automatically reconciled to God. Each person must repent (have a change of mind and heart) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as you and I have done. If they refuse, they will remain in Gehenna, that place or condition in which the severe mercy of God must be endured ---- until they do repent. Sooner or later they will.