A QUESTION or two TO UNIVERSALISTS

[RV]

One thing that has always nagged at me and maybe someone with more knowledge on this subject can help. I've never been able to figure out why those in the early church went to such lengths to preach Christ.

[Suzana]

...I would consider myself a "hopeful universalist", hopeful in that I do not feel I can demonstrate unequivocally from scripture that it is true. However, for me it is the only one of the 3 major views on the judgment after this life that makes sense. When I stop and think about why God created the universe, what His intentions are, and why it is in the "mess" we see it in, I either have to believe that God is not very kind, or that His purposes go much beyond what we can see. Since I believe that His intentions were never more clear than on the cross of Christ, I find myself able to trust in Him, that His intentions are for good....

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your response. It was good to hear your views, and also useful to be reminded to consider the bigger picture of God’s creation of the universe & His intent, rather than being stuck on various proof-texts. (I am speaking to myself, not accusing others of any such thing ).

[Suzana]

I'd love to know that God won't cast anyone into the burning flames of hell for all eternity.

I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this.

The position I've arrived at is that I don't believe the bible teaches it, mainly for the following reasons (very briefly):

1. it is inconsistent with the revealed character of God

2. the verses that do seem to point to the possibility of this happening (burning flames of hell for all eternity) have been shown to have plausible alternative interpretations;

3. the other views - universal reconciliation and conditional immortality have more scriptural support (in my understandng so far).

4. see point number one!

[RV]

Well, something that really has been sticking in my mind:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do... ~ Luke 23:34

Isn't this true for SOOOOOO many things?

I mean, I honestly feel like there are many things that are just unclear and vague. I'm having a hard time imagining God holding people accountable for things that just aren't clear.

Example: the Trinity. Now I hold that view, but really wrapping my mind around it, if I’m honest, it’s a mystery. YET... there have been times where I’ve condemned JW’s for not understanding it. Again, not because I understood it, but simply because I was told they’re going to hell because they don’t believe it.

It's hard to express everything I have on my mind right now, and it would take me two days to put it down here, but hopefully you know where I'm going with this.

For they know not what they do! Most of the time, I feel like that describes me.

[Paidion]

Again, not because I understood [the Trinity], but simply because I was told [the JWs are] going to hell because they don’t believe it.

If the JWs are going to hell for that reason, so are the United Pentecostals and those of the "Apostolic Church". So am I, and so are all the early Christians prior to the spread of the doctrine in the fourth century.

For they know not what they do! Most of the time, I feel like that describes me.

When I have sinned, I pretty well knew what I was doing.

If we haven't overcome our wrongdoing through the enablement of God's grace made available through the sacrifice of Christ, then it would appear, according to Christ's parable, that your correction will be light, but mine heavy:

And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Luke 12:47,48

[RV]

Thanks Paidion.

So why the urgency of the apostles?

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

2. My love for people increased dramatically! Prior to that it was us versus them, Christians versus non-Christians, disciples versus non-disciples, believers versus unbelievers. They were an entirely different class from us. We were the children of God; they were the children of the devil. I had noticed that some non-Christians were kind, considerate and helpful to others, ready to lend a helping hand. I couldn't understand how the children of the devil could be that way.

Now I saw everyone, not as they are, but as they SHALL BE, when they will be completely conformed to the image of Christ! Every once in a while I would see a glimmer of that in every person I contacted! Non-Christians no longer seemed so wholly other as previously. Because of my own changed attitudes, I had far more spiritual influence on others than I had when I thought that over 99% of people would end up in eternal torment.

This statement is puzzling to me, why you would feel that way toward unbelievers and why being a Universalist would make any difference? I can't relate to your experience, never having felt that way.

[mdh]

Mike, I have always appreciated your posts and your humble spirit. I wish you would post more often.

Thanks Paidion, and you too Michelle. I don't want to make this a mutual admiration society thread, but I enjoy both of your posts as well.

Regarding your question, Paidion. I don't know how to respond. To be honest, I do not consider myself expert enough on any given topic to claim to believe or know with 100% confidence. I "knew" a lot more when I was 18 years old then I do today

Blessings!
Mike

[Todd]

Paidion,

You wrote:

2. My love for people increased dramatically! Prior to that it was us versus them, Christians versus non-Christians, disciples versus non-disciples, believers versus unbelievers. They were an entirely different class from us. We were the children of God; they were the children of the devil. I had noticed that some non-Christians were kind, considerate and helpful to others, ready to lend a helping hand. I couldn't understand how the children of the devil could be that way.

Now I saw everyone, not as they are, but as they SHALL BE, when they will be completely conformed to the image of Christ! Every once in a while I would see a glimmer of that in every person I contacted! Non-Christians no longer seemed so wholly other as previously. Because of my own changed attitudes, I had far more spiritual influence on others than I had when I thought that over 99% of people would end up in eternal torment.

This statement is puzzling to me, why you would feel that way toward unbelievers and why being a Universalist would make any difference? I can't relate to your experience, never having felt that way.

Homer,

I would like to throw in my 2 cents on this one because I have had a similar change to my attitude toward unbelievers since I embraced UR. There seems to be an unconscious attitude among some christians that "God must hate the unbelievers because He will burn them in hell forever." The tendency then, is to mimic this misplaced understanding of God and harbor a bad attitude toward non-christians and a very judgmental spirit. I see it frequently. Not all christians are this way, but many are to one degree or another. Now, for me, I feel like we (christians and non-christians) are all in this together - we are all faced with struggles in this life and God wants us to lighten each other's burdens. I see this as what the Kingdom of God is all about - helping one another and showing lovingkindness to everyone.

I don't mean to sound as if I have it figured out and others don't, because I know I fail many times too, but I just wanted to point out that I understand what Paidion meant in his post.

Todd

[RV]

THIRD REQUEST

So why the urgency of the apostles?