Reflections on re-reading these threads

[Michelle]

"One of the greatest joys of the redeemed in heaven will be watching the lost in hell writhing in pain."

Could it possibly be that some of those who express such anger with the idea of universal reconcilation are concerned that if it were true, they would be deprived of one of their greatest joys when they get heaven?

I've thought that possibly this could be the motivation of some who protest against universal reconciliation. I've also thought that perhaps they feel deprived of the temporary enjoyment of sin, which they've forgone in anticipation of the joys of heaven, only to have the possibility brought up that you could enjoy sin AND heaven. By the way, I think the idea of "enjoying sin" is kind of repugnant. Although the bible does speak of enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season, it doesn't seem to consider it alluring.

[darinhouston]

I've thought that possibly this could be the motivation of some who protest against universal reconciliation. I've also thought that perhaps they feel deprived of the temporary enjoyment of sin, which they've forgone in anticipation of the joys of heaven, only to have the possibility brought up that you could enjoy sin AND heaven. By the way, I think the idea of "enjoying sin" is kind of repugnant. Although the bible does speak of enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season, it doesn't seem to consider it alluring.

That's an excellent observation, Michelle.

[Paidion]

By the way, I think the idea of "enjoying sin" is kind of repugnant.

Isn't that exactly what those in heaven would be doing if "one of their greatest joys" is the sadistic pleasure of seeing those in hell writhing in pain eternally?

[darinhouston]

Isn't that exactly what those in heaven would be doing if "one of their greatest joys" is the sadistic pleasure of seeing those in hell writhing in pain eternally?

[turn sarcasm on]
Ok, so if the highest good is to align one's will with that of God, and it's God's "good" pleasure to see those in hell writhe in pain eternally, then how can it be sin (enjoyed or not) -- wouldn't we actually be being obedient if we derive our greatest joy from their eternal pain?
[/turn sarcasm off]

[Suzana]

"One of the greatest joys of the redeemed in heaven will be watching the lost in hell writhing in pain."

Could it possibly be that some of those who express such anger with the idea of universal reconcilation are concerned that if it were true, they would be deprived of one of their greatest joys when they get heaven?

I prefer to believe this to be an aberrant, atypical attitude. Surely it must be!

When a close relative of mine learned that I believed in the eventual reconciliation of all to God, she was upset. Her comment was, "That wouldn't be fair!" Perhaps she thought it unfair if all those who lived wickedly throughout their lives ultimately end up in the same blessed state with the Lord as those who have lived righteously throughout their lives.

May I play devil's advocate here?
Perhaps it is just an attitude flowing out of a sense of justice derived from God in the first place, and gleaned from scriptures such as these, (if taken to apply to eternity in addition to temporal consequences):

Galatians 6:7-8 (KJV)7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

This is a bit different to the scenario in Jesus' parable where the labourers who worked for one hour received the same wages as those who worked the whole day.
The objections to universal reconciliation would be on the seeming injustice of a person receiving the same wages for refusing to do any work at all.

.... I've also thought that perhaps they feel deprived of the temporary enjoyment of sin, which they've forgone in anticipation of the joys of heaven, only to have the possibility brought up that you could enjoy sin AND heaven. By the way, I think the idea of "enjoying sin" is kind of repugnant. Although the bible does speak of enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season, it doesn't seem to consider it alluring.

Michelle, I too think you're right, sad to say. And probably those Christians who do still find sinning enjoyable and don't suffer conviction of sin immediately afterwards, or even during, should seriously examine the state of their faith.

[darinhouston]

The objections to universal reconciliation would be on the seeming injustice of a person receiving the same wages for refusing to do any work at all.

But, I don't see the UR's as teaching that -- who says the wages would be the same? Just because they end up in the same place, doesn't mean they'll enjoy the same experience -- some have pointed out that the believers will rule someone -- why not these people? Otherwise, who? I guess the angels?

[Suzana]

The objections to universal reconciliation would be on the seeming injustice of a person receiving the same wages for refusing to do any work at all.

But, I don't see the UR's as teaching that -- who says the wages would be the same? Just because they end up in the same place, doesn't mean they'll enjoy the same experience -- some have pointed out that the believers will rule someone -- why not these people? Otherwise, who? I guess the angels?

Darin, I agree. I was trying to look at it from the perspective of someone who may not necessarily know much about what the Universalist position actually teaches. I would see this as possibly their initial reaction to the idea that everyone will end up in heaven, if heaven is understood by them to be a blanket term covering our eternal reward.

Beyond that, I imagine it may be the case as Steve points out in his initial post:

Some of the anti-universalists do not actually seem to understand, nor correctly represent, the position of the universalists, though this ignorance, curiously, does not motivate them to seek understanding of the position before speaking against it...

[Homer]

Steve, et al,

Steve wrote:

6. For reasons that I am incapable of guessing, this subject seems to arouse more anger in some of the traditionalists than does any other controversial topic, including the trinity, Calvinism, and eschatology. If the anger were coming from the other side, I would not find it so surprising, since one might reasonably be expected to be indignant when his father, whom he knows to be virtuous, is accused of being a monster. But why a person who sees his father as a severe judge would be angry at those who make the mistake of thinking him to be kind and generous, I cannot fathom.

I do not understand the underlined part of #6. It appears you are saying that the traditionalists have depicted God as a monster and do not see Him as loving and virtuous. I suspect much of the anger shown by traditionalists is because they think the Universalists see themselves as taking a much loftier position and having a much higher view of God, and being morally superior. This apparent attitude by the Universalists has been demonstrated against Calvinists by accusing the Calvinists of worshipping a monster. I pray to God I have never done this and repent of it if I have. I am adamently anti-Calvinism, but the possibility exists that I am wrong. If the Calvinists are right, then glory to God! Though I may not understand His doings, He is perfectly just in what He does.

Matt wrote:

I think UR is more of a philisophical hope based on one's understanding of the nature of God than anything else.

With which I heartily agree. The best, and only good arguments the Universalists have are philosophical. This has been my opinion from the beginning, and may be the reason most of the Christian community has not paid much attention to it.

While philosophy is useful, our idea of God can only be correct if is based on scripture. We may, through observing nature, conclude there must be a God. The Apostle Paul affirms this. But we can not know whether He loves or hates us, or some of both, by our observation of nature. And philosophy can not do much more for us, and there is a great danger in it. As Calvin said (Calvin wasn't always wrong), we are prone to worship idols. If we interpret the revelation of God in the scriptures in such a way as to conform to our philosophical ideas of what God must be like, to fit him into the philosophical box we have built, we may very well be worshipping an idol of our own making.

You questioned whether any harm could be done by teaching Universalism. In the 19th century there was a long debate between Campbell (traditionalist) and Skinner (universalist) in which Campbell commented on the large number of people who became apostates in the churches of New England where Universalism had gained a foothold. It is easy to see why. The Universalists have argued here that hell is not for punishment, but solely for correction. They have no answer as to why correction should take any time at all, nor is it possible for them to show, from scripture, why it would. Any thoughtful person on hearing their teaching could easily conclude that, at the judgement, all they need to do is repent and confess Jesus on the spot and punch their ticket to heaven. It is easy to see why people would fall away. Jesus' many threats were certainly meant to cause alarm, and lead people to respond in their own interest.

Speaking of philosophical arguments, the question "how can God give infinite punishment for finite sin?" (by the way, attributed to Bertrand Russell) seems to be a very weak one. It is said that we would not do this, no court would do it, so how could God? It could as well be asked how He could punish for a thousand years, or even a hundred. Some liberal judges are easier than that. Does that make them better than the traditional view of God? Think of this. If you were there at the time of Noah, and God said He was about to send the terrible flood, destroying untold thousands of innocent children (Calvinist, ignore I said that ), along with great numbers of mentally incapable, and He asked you if He should proceed, what would you say? From our view it would a difficult thing, but God was perfectly good and just in doing so. Our philosophy can not provide the answer to God's justice, nor the problem of suffering.

What Jonathan Edwards said is certainly not my opinion, nor that of any traditionalist I know, and bringing it up is nothing more than a red herring. It is a good example of why some folks might get a little angry.

I posted a thread about "Universalism and the Patience of God" and am still hoping for comments by the Universalists. I would like to see a biblical response.

I am still undecided whether the traditional view or annihilationist is correct, while Paidion's view is most appealing, but IMO, it has very weak scriptural support.

May God bless all the EPs, CIs, and URs.

[darinhouston]

Any thoughtful person on hearing their teaching could easily conclude that, at the judgement, all they need to do is repent and confess Jesus on the spot and punch their ticket to heaven. It is easy to see why people would fall away.

Though I'm not ok with them falling away, I guess I'm fine with them getting their ticket punched at that last moment just like a death-bed conversion. That used to bother me, but now even focusing on my self-interest and self-view of justice, wouldn't they have lost out on some "placement" or position in the new earth? It's not like they'll be in the same position I hope we believers all will be who have followed Christ in our lives.

[Homer]

Darin,

No fair! You replied before I finished editing my post! Not that it matters.

You wrote:

Though I'm not ok with them falling away, I guess I'm fine with them getting their ticket punched at that last moment just like a death-bed conversion.

That is well and good if UR is tuue, but a horrible outcome if they have been mislead!

And:

That used to bother me, but now even focusing on my self-interest and self-view of justice, wouldn't they have lost out on some "placement" or position in the new earth? It's not like they'll be in the same position I hope we believers all will be who have followed Christ in our lives.

Perhaps you never heard the old song "Just a little log-cabin, in the corner of glory land". The thought was a humble one. Just being in heaven, in the humblest circumstance, and shaking Jesus' hand would be wonderful. Besides, those who rule over others in the next life will be like Christ and are sure to be very nice folks!.