Justice Never Served?

[Jeff]

I've heard Steve present an argument that if people are paying for their sins in hell forever and can never pay them off, then justice is never truly served. On a logical level, I can certainly see validity to that argument. However, as best I can tell from Revelation 20:10, the devil, the false prophet, and the beast will certainly be tormented in the lake of fire forever. Steve (or anyone else) - do you interpret "forever" here differently? Otherwise this would seem to be a problem for the "justice is never served" argument. If these three are indeed tormented forever, then you would think they are also paying for their own sins forever, which would still mean that justice is never served under the same logic. I have not looked at the original Greek text of Revelation 20:10, but I looked at several translations and they render this "forever" or "forever and ever".

[steve]

There's no problem here with the Greek. The problem may be with the approach to Revelation. Those who base their visions of eschatology upon a literalistic approach to Revelation are, in my view, making a mistake.

The book is a book of symbolic visions, where both human and non-human entities are depicted as animals, monsters, etc. Thus Satan is represented as a dragon; the political systems and religious systems allied with him are represented as monstrous beasts, Jesus as a lamb, etc. Though there is a genuine cosmic drama that this depicts, the language is symbolic. The statement that these creatures are tormented day and night forever need not be taken any more literally than are their descriptions (i.e., that Satan is a seven-headed, red dragon with ten horns, etc.). Similarly, death and hades are personified in Revelation (see the fourth horseman, in chapter 6), and they are also thrown into "the lake of fire."

That such non-personal concepts as "death" and "hades" are depicted as if they were conscious individuals thrown into a fiery judgment should put us on our guard against taking these phrases as if they were literal descriptions. The chaining of a dragon and his consignment to a bottomless pit with a lid on it is the language of myth employed to symbolize spiritual truths. I believe that the story's climax—that is, all the bad guys who have been introduced earlier are finally sent off to a flaming torture chamber, where they are "tormented day and night forever and ever" is a fitting end to such a literary masterpiece. It is, to my mind, equivalent to our familiar (though equally non-literal) "they lived happily ever after," only the reverse.

[darinhouston]

Steve, I've never heard you put something quite so succinctly -- seriously, I really like this explanation.

[Jeff]

Thanks for the reply Steve. I see your point. I never had a problem with the idea of Hades being thrown into the lake of fire, I always saw that as describing those in Hades awaiting judgment being thrown in, not the literal place Hades. Death I guess would be a little more difficult to be understood literally, point taken. I believe I've heard that you're also cautious to take the descriptions of the final destination of the believers mentioned in the book literally as well correct? I seriously need to buy your book on Revelation, even though I know it doesn't represent your own personal views...

So now a personal question related to this topic - so are you now decided on annihilationism as the correct view? I believe the last time I heard you actually say, you were still slightly leaning towards the traditional view of "hell" but certainly open to other possiblities. That describes my own view somewhat. I believe in the traditional view of "hell" but I'm open to this particular alternative.

[Paidion]

... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented [tested] day and night forever and ever [lit. "into the ages of the ages"]. (Rev. 20:10)

When John uses the past tense, he was describing what he saw in his vision, often figurative, but also representing a future reality. But when he uses the future tense, he seems to be stating straight-forwardly what is to take place. So I take the words "they will be tested day and night for ages and ages" as a simple statement of what will happen to the devil, "beast", and false prophet. I see the Greek as saying "for ages and ages" rather than "forever and ever".

[brody196]

... and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented [tested] day and night forever and ever [lit. "into the ages of the ages"]. (Rev. 20:10)

When John uses the past tense, he was describing what he saw in his vision, often figurative, but also representing a future reality. But when he uses the future tense, he seems to be stating straight-forwardly what is to take place. So I take the words "they will be tested day and night for ages and ages" as a simple statement of what will happen to the devil, "beast", and false prophet. I see the Greek as saying "for ages and ages" rather than "forever and ever".

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't your view hold that even Satan will repent one day and come to Christ?

[steve]

Jeff,

For some reason this post escaped my notice until now:

So now a personal question related to this topic - so are you now decided on annihilationism as the correct view? I believe the last time I heard you actually say, you were still slightly leaning towards the traditional view of "hell" but certainly open to other possiblities. That describes my own view somewhat. I believe in the traditional view of "hell" but I'm open to this particular alternative.

My leanings are presently, as they have been for some considerable time, away from the traditional view, which I now find to be weak both in its exegetical support and in its implications concerning the character of God. I do not find myself compelled to choose, on the basis of scriptural evidence, between the two alternatives. On the one hand, annihilation seems to have a great deal of textual support, but, on the other, there is similarly good support for universal reconciliation. The latter has the one advantage of being the system that would give God the greatest pleasure in eternity—which is not an inconsequential consideration, since we might expect God to have created an arrangement that would ultimately have such a positive effect upon His own morale.

[Homer]

The latter has the one advantage of being the system that would give God the greatest pleasure in eternity

Yes, universalism is sure to please God the most. People come to Christ of their own free will and struggle to the end of this life to remain faithful. He has those. Then He gets the rest through a process of endless torture and torment. Of their free will also, of course. Nothing so satisfying as love that is coerced.

[steve7150]

Then He gets the rest through a process of endless torture and torment. Of their free will also, of course. Nothing so satisfying as love that is coerced.






When Christ was revealed to Paul , how long did it take for Paul to call him "Lord"? Was Paul coerced or was the truth simply revealed to Paul? Was Paul special,unique or one of a kind? Probably not as Paul called himself the chief of sinners.
As Paul said the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers, should they not have the same chance Paul did?
How about James , did he need thousands of years of torture to call Jesus "Lord"? Is James special, is anyone?