Now we see through a glass, darkly

[Todd]

How will those who are unfaithful unto death understand who Christ is when He returns and they (the unfaithful) are resurrected? Will they continue to reject Him in their newly resurrected state? Or, will they immediately recogonize Him for who He is, and praise His Name? It seems more likely (to me) that the latter will be the case and that the unfaithful will immediately know and fully understand as if they had an epiphany.

Rev 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Everyone will see Christ when he returns and all peoples of the earth will mourn at his coming. I don't think they will need any convincing. Why are they mourning? Could it be because they realize their own disobedience and the negative impact of their sinfulness? Maybe. Perhaps they mourn due to the brightness of His holiness and it frightens them. Maybe they mourn as they see him and they are immediately "receiving for the things done while in the body" (2 Cor 5:10). I believe each will receive what is appropriate for what each has done (good or bad). Any divine punishment/correction still due (not already suffered in their lifetime) will find its completion, and then they will be reconciled to God. I personally don't see this as a long drawn out process, but for many I suspect it will be very unpleasant (Paul said they would suffer "tribulation and anguish" Rom 2:9).

1 Cor 13:9-12
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul says that he will "know" when he sees "face to face". Is this referring to seeing Christ face to face at his return? I think all the earth will "know" also.

Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Since only a few find the narrow path, who is this countless multitude? This great multitude, we are told, came out of "great tribulation" (v.14); could this be the same tribulation that Paul spoke of in Rom 2:9? I think it is very possible. This “tribulation” may very well be the divine judgment that the unfaithful will receive on judgment day. If so, it is important to notice that they came out of the tribulation and are then praising God having "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb".

Todd

[Suzana]

How will those who are unfaithful unto death understand who Christ is when He returns and they (the unfaithful) are resurrected? Will they continue to reject Him in their newly resurrected state? Or, will they immediately recogonize Him for who He is, and praise His Name? It seems more likely (to me) that the latter will be the case and that the unfaithful will immediately know and fully understand as if they had an epiphany.

....I don't think they will need any convincing.

I'm not sure about the final outcome for the unsaved, but I do agree people won't need to be convinced of who Jesus is any longer, I think it will be fairly obvious to all!

[Paidion]

Paul says that he will "know" when he sees "face to face". Is this referring to seeing Christ face to face at his return? I think all the earth will "know" also.

The context, I Corinthians 13, all about LOVE, makes it clear what Paul is writing about:

The first 7 verses describe how LOVE is manifested in people:

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Next, Paul tells us that LOVE is unending, unlike the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge:

8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Then, Paul explains that the reason that the gifts of knowledge and the gift of prophecy will pass away is that they are imperfect, that is, incomplete. But when LOVE, which is perfect and unending comes in it fullness to God's people, the gifts of knowledge and prophecy will pass away because they are no longer needed.

9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

Next, he suggests that the spiritual gifts compared to LOVE, is analogous to his immature thoughts and ways as a child compared to his mature thoughts and ways as a man.

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

Mirrors in those says were often polished metal shields which gave an unclear reflection. Paul compares our knowledge of others to looking into such a mirror. We see only a distorted image of others. But when perfect LOVE comes to us, we shall see others clearly, as they really are!

Paul indicated that with the gift of prophecy can help us to know someone partially. For prophecy reveals things about other people which could not be known naturally. The same with the gift of knowledge. The Lord reveals things about other people to those with the gift of knowledge. But that knowledge of others is only partial. When perfect LOVE comes, we will know others fully, just as we are known fully by God, who has perfect LOVE for us.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

So even though the spiritual gifts, such as knowledge, prophecy, and tongues will pass away, faith, hope and love will remain. They will never pass away, never end.

13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Jill]

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[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

So even though the spiritual gifts, such as knowledge, prophecy, and tongues will pass away, faith, hope and love will remain. They will never pass away, never end.

13. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I have never understood how this statement can be about the state of those who are with Christ post-resurrection. What time period do you have in mind? Is this prior to the resurrection? Love is certainly eternal, but faith and hope?

The biblical definition of the terms does not seem to fit a post resurrection age:

Hebrews 11:1 (New King James Version)

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 8:24 (New King James Version)
24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

I did not think there would be a "doubting Thomas" there. Certainly we will believe. We will see, but would that be called faith according to the Hebrews 11:1 definition? And what is it we will be lacking and hoping for?

God bless, Homer

[Todd]

Paul says that he will "know" when he sees "face to face". Is this referring to seeing Christ face to face at his return? I think all the earth will "know" also.

The context, I Corinthians 13, all about LOVE, makes it clear what Paul is writing about:

Paidion,

I agree that the context is about Love, but does love have a face? Paul says he will see face-to-face.

One of my thoughts here is that if Paul sees through a glass darkly, how much more so (dark) would it be for the unbeliever. And when the unbeliever sees Christ face-to-face at his coming, how quickly might his attitude change when he then "knows" as Paul knows.

Todd

[Todd]

Hebrews 11:1 (New King James Version)

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 8:24 (New King James Version)
24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

I did not think there would be a "doubting Thomas" there. Certainly we will believe. We will see, but would that be called faith according to the Hebrews 11:1 definition? And what is it we will be lacking and hoping for?

God bless, Homer

Homer,

You are correct; the unbeliever did not have a saving faith prior to Christ's return. Therefore he will receive for the things done while in the body whether good or bad. This divine punishment will be in balance and appropriate for the wrong-doing and will be finite. We are also told that each one will receive for the good done as well. It could very well be that judgment day only lasts one day and then eternity begins with all that completed and God is all-in-all.

Todd

[Paidion]

I have never understood how this statement can be about the state of those who are with Christ post-resurrection. What time period do you have in mind? Is this prior to the resurrection? Love is certainly eternal, but faith and hope?

I think Paul had in mind that the state of perfect love could be reached in this life, prior to the resurrection. It is my hope that this is the case, and I have faith that it could happen --- it all depends upon God's people. So now, with keen anticipation, we await the LOVE! I think he was saying that when perfect love finally comes to God's people [in this life], spiritual gifts such as prophecy and the gift of knowledge will pass away since they will no longer be needed, but faith, hope, and LOVE will remain.

I agree that the context is about Love, but does love have a face? Paul says he will see face-to-face.

Did I suggest that it's LOVE that we see face-to-face? Please reread my remarks.

Mirrors in those says were often polished metal shields which gave an unclear reflection. Paul compares our knowledge of others to looking into such a mirror. We see only a distorted image of others. But when perfect LOVE comes to us, we shall see others clearly, as they really are!

By saying that we will see others as they really are, I was interpreting "seeing [them] face-to-face"

[Jill]

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[Todd]

It seems that my reference to 1 Cor 13 has distracted the discussion away from one of the main points that I was attempting to make. It has often been said that there are no scriptures which plainly state that the unfaithful can be "saved" after death. While it could be argued that no verses in Revelation are "plain", no one has commented on the following...

Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Since only a few find the narrow path, who is this countless multitude? This great multitude, we are told, came out of "great tribulation" (v.14); could this be the same tribulation that Paul spoke of in Rom 2:9? I think it is very possible. This “tribulation” may very well be the divine judgment that the unfaithful will receive on judgment day. If so, it is important to notice that they came out of the tribulation and are then praising God having "made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb".

I realize that there are many views of what "the great tribulation" is about, but here I suggest an alternative. Could there be any greater tribulation than God's divine judgment upon the unfaithful on judgment day?

Todd