Questions for proponents of CI

[Todd]

The New Testament uses the word "death" in at least two common ways.
1. physical death (i.e., the death of the physical body)
2. spiritual death (describing someone who is living yet overcome in sin)

The proponents of Conditional Immortality see a third use.
3. annihilation (non-existence of spirit, soul and body)

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This verse seems to be used as a proof-text for Conditional Immortality (CI). It seems that the word "death" is taken to mean "annihilation". Have I understood this properly? If so, how do you draw that conclusion?

The following verse seems to relate sin with physical death. Is there any relation between these verses?

Rom 8:10
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Todd

[steve7150]

The proponents of Conditional Immortality see a third use.
3. annihilation (non-existence of spirit, soul and body)

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




It's not clear to me that Paul is referring to physical death verses spiritual death for in the previous chapter he says,
"Death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses" Rom 5.14.
Clearly physical death did'nt end with Moses but spiritual death could have because the law gave an opportunity to have some type of relationship with God.

[mattrose]

A dichotomist (or trichotomist) presupposition is built into your question rendering it difficult to answer. You're assuming that physical death is only the partial death of a person, whereas, if we are holistically unified beings, death is death.

I tend toward a view of being that is connected to both monism and the dichotomist position. I believe we are essentially holistic, but that believers are kept alive in God's memory, so to speak, until resurrection. But this 'kept alive' is something real and is a conscious existence.

[Suzana]

I believe we are essentially holistic, but that believers are kept alive in God's memory, so to speak, until resurrection. But this 'kept alive' is something real and is a conscious existence.

I'm finding it difficult to get my head around a real conscious existence in God's memory.
Maybe it's the way it's worded, but to me it sounds a bit sci-fi?

[Paidion]

I, too, Suzana. I can fully accept that God remembers every individual, and on that basis He can bring that same person back to life at the resurrection. But I cannot comprehend the idea that God's memory constitutes a "real conscious existence" for each of those individuals.

[Todd]

I tend toward a view of being that is connected to both monism and the dichotomist position. I believe we are essentially holistic, but that believers are kept alive in God's memory, so to speak, until resurrection. But this 'kept alive' is something real and is a conscious existence.

Matt,

Am I correct to assume from this answer that you think only believers will be resurrected? If so, why did Paul say that both the just and unjust will be resurrected?

Todd

[steve7150]

I, too, Suzana. I can fully accept that God remembers every individual, and on that basis He can bring that same person back to life at the resurrection. But I cannot comprehend the idea that God's memory constitutes a "real conscious existence" for each of those individuals.




Extending that logic then perhaps we were alive before we were born since God may know us before we are born.

But i am a trichotomist because we are made in the image of God and He is Spirit therefore i think we do have a Spirit Man that the Holy Spirit speaks to as Paul said.
We have talked about this topic many times but Paul said to die is gain and Jesus said believers would never die. There is only one state of being that reconciles with these statements.

[mattrose]

Matt,

Am I correct to assume from this answer that you think only believers will be resurrected? If so, why did Paul say that both the just and unjust will be resurrected?

Todd

Hey Todd

No, I believe in a general resurrection of the dead. I was referring to the fact that believers experience something beforehand.

As for my statements about believers existing in God's memory, I agree it sounds sci-fi'ish. It's just a theory that tries to blend monism with the believer's post-death consciousness.