The Book of Life and Universalism

[Guest]

It seems to me that Revelation 22:6-21 is written as an epilogue. The second coming and judgement appears to have occured in chapters 19 and 20 while 22:7 speaks of judgement as having not yet taken place. Revelation appears to not be a chronological book as you have noted in the past.


Depends on one's perspective for this "coming quickly" can apply to being judged after the "last day" and the great white throne judgment has happened and the unsaved are judged in and through the lake of fire. If one does not think salvation after death is possible then these verses would have to be an epilogue but if it is possible then these verses can fit sequentially very consistently with purification through the lake of fire.
"Coming quickly" i think simply means Jesus is coming to judge us which can happen anytime and anywhere at any moment.

[Guest]

According to Rev 2.17 anyone who overcomes will receive a NEW NAME and that new name may be the name written in the book of Life. Therefore it would seem no one's name in the book of life was always there because this new name is conditional on overcoming which is a process not a single transaction.
This idea of a process fits well with these verses in Rev after unbelievers are in the LOF. It sounds very much like a process "Blessed are those who wash their robes , so that they may have the right to the tree of life AND MAY ENTER BY THE GATES into the city" Rev 22.14

[Guest]

Hey, I'm new around here, so I'm not really sure if there is a live representative of the Universalism stance, but I note that there really hasn't been much of a response to the thrust of Homer's point- namely, that these passages constitute one of the obvious difficulties with Universalism. I'm curious if there is a signficant response to this verse from Universalists.

[Guest]

anochria.

welcome to the forums. in a nut shell the posts after the OP present alternate views that would support UR.

[Guest]

Suzana wrote:

And all the ones dwelling on the earth will prostrate themselves in worship before it, the name of whom has not been written in the Scroll of Life of the Lamb having been slain from [the] laying of the foundation of [the] world [or, from [the] beginning of the creation of [the] universe].

When I read it translated like this, it seems to be saying that the only one whose name is not written in the book of life is the beast. Is that how you are reading it as well?

[Guest]

Hi Rae

Quote:
And all the ones dwelling on the earth will prostrate themselves in worship before it, the name of whom has not been written in the Scroll of Life of the Lamb having been slain from [the] laying of the foundation of [the] world [or, from [the] beginning of the creation of [the] universe].


When I read it translated like this, it seems to be saying that the only one whose name is not written in the book of life is the beast. Is that how you are reading it as well?

Sometimes reading bible verses can be a bit like some optical illusions!
To me, it reads as 'the name of whom has not been written in the Scroll of Life..." is referring to "all the ones dwelling on the earth..."(who worshipped the beast).
I guess we do have to compare scripture with scripture; eg.in Revelation 20:12-15, it talks about all the dead, the great & the small, & then v15 says:
' And if anyone was not found having been written in the Scroll of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'

p.s. Hope your bag's packed for tomorrow!

[Guest]

And all the ones dwelling on the earth will prostrate themselves in worship before it, the name of whom has not been written in the Scroll of Life of the Lamb having been slain from [the] laying of the foundation of [the] world [or, from [the] beginning of the creation of [the] universe].

Actually Suzanna, I hadn't carefully read this "version" of Rev 17:8 until just now. There appears to be several errors in translation. The Greek doesn't read "will prostrate themselves" but "will wonder" or "will marvel". The words "the lamb" do not occur in the text.

One might think that since "name" is singular, it might apply to the beast rather than to the ones dwelling on earth. If that were the case then "of whom" would be singular. However, it is clearly plural in Greek. So it must refer to the ones dwelling on earth.

[Guest]

Hi Paidion,

Sorry, I didn't mark the verse very well. The one that I quoted above is actually Revelation 13:8
hopefully that will remove the seeming translation errors!

[Guest]

Suzana, I should have realized that you meant that one since Steve quoted the references to both verses.

As Rachel pointed out, the one whose name is not written in the book of life does seem to refer to the beast. For "name is singular, as is "of whom". Also "his" or literally "of him". I can see nothing in the Greek which would exclude that interpretation. But that understanding is new to me. So I thought I'd check it out with the commentators. 6 or 7 of them didn't address the issue at all, but in Alford's Greek Testament, Alford writes ,"The change into the singular arises from resolving pantes into its component individuals."

Pantes is the Greek word for "all".

So I, too, think it refers to "all" rather than to the beast. That would also agree with the passage in Rev 17:8 where those whose names are not written in the book of life more obviously refer to "the dwellers on earth."

On the other hand, that meaning [that the names were written in the book of life as they became God's servants throughout the generations]seems less workable in the context of Revelation 17:8—

"And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."

I think I see what you mean. Yet it seems possible that the explanation works here, too. For anyone whose name has not been written in the book of life at any time during their sojourn on earth, would naturally be deceived by the beast.