The [Non-Universalist] Definition of the Church

[Guest]

Greetings,

The Church: from Greek, ekklesia, "the called out ones"


The Church is The One Bride of Christ

Ephesians 5 (NASB)
22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Christ is the head over his Church, of which is comprised those who have seen sancified ("set apart") to be his own as: one woman is set apart from all other women to be a man's one & only wife. Christ saves his church as he, himself, sanctifies and cleanses "her". He is preparing his church for the marriage that will happen when he returns. "She", his church, will be gloriously beautiful and without defect. "The perfect bride!" There is but One "Bride of Christ" whom he will totally have ready for himself when he returns.
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Christ's One and Only Church

Ephesians 1 (NASB)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him.

God has no "secrets" regarding the one and only church; it's "mystery" has been fully revealed according the Father's will, purpose and plan, in all wisdom and insight. The grace and glory of God is completely realized in and through the One Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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The One Church Is: Those Who Believe: The Inheritors of Every Promise of God

Ephesians 1 (NASB)
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
15For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
16do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

The church are those who, through faith, have 'heard the call of God to them' through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have called back to Him (see Romans, chapter 10). They are promised the inheritance of God's one and only redemption. Till that redemption is fully realized at the second coming of Christ, the church grows in all wisdom and personal knowledge of God the Father.
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God Has Subjected All Things to Christ: Under and Through the Church

Ephesians 1 (NASB)
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Christ is exalted over every rule, power, and authority. Through the church, which is the fullness of his body in the world, redemption and every divine purpose will be carried out. The church is both the recipent {benefactors}of God's salvation and the vehicle through which God's redemptive plan for humanity will be accomplished. The Divine Plan will be consummated when Christ returns.
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The One Church is Completely Immune From The Second Death

Revelation 2 (NASB)
8"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:
9'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
10'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Jesus promises all Christians, then and now, protection from those who blaspheme, though they may throw our bodies into prison and/or kill us [see Matt 10:28].

No one who "overcomes" by remaining faithful their calling to the Only Church of Jesus Christ will go to the Lake of Fire and experience the Second Death. It won't even "harm" them at all, says the Lord!
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There is and ever only will be:
One Church in One Body of "called out ones" over whom Jesus Christ is Lord, Savior, Head, and Groom. Christ will succeed in having the church, his Bride, totally ready for himself when he returns.
One Redemption, One Salvation, One Predestined Divine Plan of God the Father.
This plan is NO "mystery". There will be NO OTHER "secret postmortem church".
Saint Paul and John the Revelator were not gnostics and taught no "secrets".
The One Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is not gnostic.
The God of the Church is not a gnostic god.
Jesus Christ is not a gnostic savior.
I'm not a gnostic either!
Who knew?
I do!

Have a good day,
Rick

[Guest]

The Church: from Greek, ekklesia, "the called out ones"

Etymologically, that is the meaning. But it came to mean simply "assembly". However, any assembly, in a sense, is "called out" from everyone else.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Christ's "One and Only Church" is called out from everyone else. I cannot see this fact as any more"non-universalist" than "universalist".

[Guest]

Paidion,

I was just giving the historical view in answer to the folder's question, in light of what the Bible says about the Church's destiny [Ecclesiology]:

Which of the alternative views of hell is the true teaching of scripture?

Perhaps you could start a new thread on the "CU Definition of the Church" to explain how people who are not, and will not, be in the Church/Bride of Christ before they die: How you see them as also being in the Church/The Body/and Bride of Christ?

Your view says people will be saved after they go to hell. Neither Paul nor John (above) said members of Christ's Body, the Church, his Bride, will go there. I'd like to see you elaborate on this on a new thread? My view is basically "said" so I don't really have more to say on it. I chose Ephesians as a 'best summary', though many other texts could be sited. But I don't see the need.....

Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

Since a thread was recently started here called "Definition of 'Church'," I am not sure why it was necessary to start a new thread separately under this forum—since there is nothing distictively "non-universalistic" about the (very good) definition you provided.

Like Paidion, I can't see how one definition of the church is more or less "universalistic" than another. In my view, entirely apart from any consideration of the ultimate outcome of the future judgment, people are gathered into the church in this life only, which is one of the primary reasons why all people must be urged to come to Christ in this lifetime. The church is Christ's bride and queen, who will reign with Him forever.

The vexing question is: Over whom will the church reign?

Universalists might have a sensible answer to this question. The rest of us, I have always felt, have little that we can say about this.

[Guest]

Steve,

Since a thread was recently started here called "Definition of 'Church'," I am not sure why it was necessary to start a new thread separately under this forum—since there is nothing distictively "non-universalistic" about the (very good) definition you provided.

TK wants the "Christian Universalist" view of the Church.

So I made a separate thread (and also to try to quell some of the 'debating', just my IMO, short commentary thingy).

And, thanks...but Paul did most of it,

I was giving the historical view in answer to the folder's question, in light of what the Bible says about the Church's destiny [Ecclesiology]:
"Which of the alternative views of hell is the true teaching of scripture?"
Folder related: The Church [Ecclesiology] in light of its final destiny [Eschatology].

The Church Paul wrote about isn't universalist.
No one in it will go to hell or to the Lake of Fire.

You don't see anything non-universalistic in any of the verses? How about there are no more "mysteries" about the church? (universalists might have another "postmortem secret church" that Paul didn't tell us about?).

Let's do:
Eph. 5 (NASB)
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

According to Paul, the church will be spotless and blameless and ready as a bride for Christ when he returns. But universalists say and admit, so to speak, that not everyone is going to BE ready and will NOT be in the Bride of Christ/Church Paul wrote about. I don't see how anyone can miss this....

Like Paidion, I can't see how one definition of the church is more or less "universalistic" than another. In my view, entirely apart from any consideration of the ultimate outcome of the future judgment, people are gathered into the church in this life only, which is one of the primary reasons why all people must be urged to come to Christ in this lifetime. The church is Christ's bride and queen, who will reign with Him forever.

I see.

But I'm asking an eschatological question about the church: Does Paul have a universalist doctrine of the church in Ephesians? No, it's not there: the Church he describes is the one before Jesus comes back, and you have to believe to be in it. But universalists might have another answer? There aren't any more "mysteries" about this particular church Paul wrote about (the Only One that is "now" till Jesus comes back).

If there's "another postmortem secret church" for people who come through hell or something like that, Paul didn't write about it. To me it's simple & clear. Universalists may say there's another church, I don't know....
If there is another one, the Bible doesn't tell us anything about it.


Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

You don't see anything non-universalistic in any of the verses? How about there are no more "mysteries" about the church? (universalists might have another "postmortem secret church" that Paul didn't tell us about?)

.

I had not read about any additional "mysteries" in the universalistic literature, and, if anyone here has said anything about a "postmortem church," I may not have read it. I am not aware of anyone holding such a view, but perhaps you have read it in one of the several posts that I have not had time to read.

If I were a universalist, I would not believe in a postmortem church. I would simply believe that the one church (the one you mentioned and that Paul writes about) is the only church. It will reign with Christ over all else for eternity. People who come to repentance after death would not be a part of the church itself. They would become part of the kingdom, but they would not reign with Christ, as the church would.

As I've said a number of times, it does not appear to me that you understand what (I think) universalists believe. At least, it is evident that you don't understand what I have said about them. I suppose I have said as much as I need to in an attempt to clarify where I think you are misunderstanding. My desire is not to make you believe universalism (since I don't personally follow that line), but only to get you to stop refuting points that no one really believes, as far as I can tell.

My impression is that you are quite resistant to understanding these people. Perhaps you are afraid you would be compromising something if you gave them a fair hearing and tried to understand what they are saying before answering them. I used to be that way about certain groups. I had to assure my fellow conservatives that I was a true, card-carrying evangelical, by making (misguided) snide remarks about certain groups (e.g., Catholics, JWs, etc.). An attempt to fairly understand what they did and did not believe would have been too much trouble—and too much like compromising with the enemy. I am embarrassed today by some of these attitudes of my youth. Most of what I have written to you on this topic has truly been only with a mind to sparing you a similar future embarrassment.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Hello Steve,

As I've said a number of times, it does not appear to me that you understand what (I think) universalists believe.

I think I share Rick's problem (and your's?).

One of the difficulties here is that the universalists are at considerable variance with each other. One insists hell is a horrible place of ages long (thousands of years?) punishment by fire, while another chastises me for referring to torment in reply to their arguments. Another thinks there is no hell at all. One thinks hell may only be for a short time, or maybe not. Another thinks some (Hitler and others?) may be punished forever, or maybe not.

One thing I do know: they do not believe what they think I believe. But that's another story; thinking about another thread on what hell is. Hint: I think the lake of fire is , horrors, a metaphor.

[Guest]

One of the difficulties here is that the universalists are at considerable variance with each other. One insists hell is a horrible place of ages long (thousands of years?) punishment by fire, while another chastises me for referring to torment in reply to their arguments. Another thinks there is no hell at all. One thinks hell may only be for a short time, or maybe not. Another thinks some (Hitler and others?) may be punished forever, or maybe not.


I don't think Rick et al particularly care one way or the other about the CUs different interpretations of the details of hell. What offends them is the thought of salvation after death. Of course if one "loves his enemy" or even loves his unsaved neighbor as Christ taught then i would think this would be joyful news but alas apparently it's an offense to many. Of course i can't read people's hearts but based on the nature of the reactions they do seem to take offense.

[Guest]

The irony about this debate is that the whole reason it exists is the dearth of clear and unambiguous scriptural passages that address the eternal state of either the saved or the lost. It simply never became the focus of much attention to the biblical writers. Perhaps we should take a cue from them in this respect.

Probably the reason that universalists do not all share the exact same vision of hell is this very fact that verses upon which to base an opinion are sparse and not without ambiguity. Varieties of opinion over details also can be found among those who believe in eternal torment. Some believe in literal fire, some think the "burning" is that of regret, or of cravings that will never be fulfilled, or that the fire is otherwise symbolic. Some also believe in degrees of intensity of torment in hell. The presence of these differences of opinion can be explained in just the same manner as can the differences among universalists—namely, the dearth of biblical data.

Anyone who wishes to dogmatize for one position over another (something I am in no way prepared to do, at this point in my life) has one of two options open to him:

1) he can make his case on the handful of indecisive proof-texts that sound like they may support the view of choice (this can be done by adherents to any one of the views); or

2) He can recognize the fewness and ambiguity of the passages that seem to speak directly to the issue, and form his theology by extrapolation from some much more prominent theme of scripture—e.g., the concept of justice, the love of God, the example of Christ, the standards of treating enemies found in the teaching of Christ, etc.

It seems that most who teach eternal torment follow the first approach, whereas those who follow the other two approaches use both methods. Those who hold to eternal torment rarely make their case by arguing convincingly about the nature of justice, the love of God, the character of Christ, etc. They do so (and I know this, because I did so for many years mysel) out of loyalty to a handful of prooftexts which they cannot see in any way other than the traditional way. I don't mean this to derogate those who do so, nor necessarily to prove them incorrect (since this alone would not prove them to be incorrect). It is simply an unbiased observation on my part.