The Second Death

[Guest]

Derek,

Actually, as I stated, I think the interpretation you have of Mt 10:28 is the most likely. However, it just seems to me that people "assume" that it is God in view and it doesn't actually say that. I just wanted to consider another, although very small, possibility. Want to keep an open mind.

Regarding the second death, again, here it does not say what happens to those who are found in the book of life (whether they pass through the fire or not). It just says that the ones NOT found in the book are "CAST" in (as in unwillingly).

The images of fire and sulfur are in my opinion symbolic. Why those symbols? The Bible teaches that *all* will be salted with fire (Mk. 9:49), and that our (believer) works will be tested with fire. (1 Cor. 3). Note here we see a judgment based on works in Rev 20 as well.

And, as I mentioned, in the first century sulfur was used to prepare unclean things for use in worship.

And I didn't say that the "first death" was death to self, what I said was that the "second death" did not hurt or have power over those who were disciples (who had already purified themselves).

Derek, you asked for other views on the second death. I just gave you some speculation. I do not claim to have a full understanding of these things. What makes sense to me, though, is that when God came up with His grand plan for the creation, it was probably a better plan than one where the majority of His creation either ends up burning forever in Hell or burning for a shorter time and then being extinguished. It does not make sense to me that the God who loved His creation so much to send His Son to demonstrate love on the cross would stop loving that creation when it physically died. But that is just what makes sense to me. You may see it differently (and I am fine with that!)

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Derek,

I agree that the verses you sited are judgment passages. As is Rev 20. The questions:

1) Are they in any sense purification as well as judgment. Is not the creation being purified when evil is judged?

2) In Rev. 20, is the evil what is being destroyed, or the person? (Or both?) Is there anything left of the person after the judgment is complete?

The bible says (Mt. 10:42, Mk. 9:41) that anyone who gives a cup of water to a disciple in the name of Christ will never lose his/her reward. Does this mean only believers will do this act? Does this mean that a non-believer who does this (or a believer who later falls away) will receive less punishment before being "extinguished"? I don't know.

Is there anything worth saving of those who are cast into the lake of fire? If so, would God destroy the good with the bad?

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

Quote: " I believe that images of fire and brimstone, as well as what "gehenna" surely meant in the ears of Jesus' audience, suggest destruction, consumation and judgement more than anything else".

Actually, Jewish thought on Gehenna varied as much as we do on what the final Judgement of God will be like. Jesus we assume gave the "correct" imagery and application to the metaphor. Steve7150 actually gives a 'slant" to Gehenna that some Jews believe even today. That of 'cleansing and purification' was in one sense remedial to some Jewish groups. It was their kind of "purgatory". But like the Catholic view of purgatory, not everyone will benefit from its purification. Apparently Gehenna was compartmentalized into two chambers. One chamber was held for Jewish 'sinners' who didn't commit vile sins such as adultery.. The duration in Gehenna was usually limited to one year. Afterwards the
"purged" will enter a restored Edenic Paradise. The rest are burned and annihilated. Some Jewish views of Gehenna however, do believe it to be an endless torment of eternal duration. Not for Jews of course, but for gentile pagans and the enemies of Israel. Apparently, all Jews have a share in the age to come in some sense regardless of their differences on Gehenna.
One comment made me laugh. You could be thrown into Gehenna if you allowed your wife to sway you too much! Jewish thought can be pretty funny!

[Guest]

Greetings, Great Topic, Derek, (I've been putting off studying it for too long)!

Bob is right about the Jews having various views about gehenna (it gets fairly confusing)...But we have our own Rabbi: Jesus!!! Amen?

The thing about these Jewish views is, a lot of them are in the Talmud and/or Mishnah which came after Jesus; the Mishnah being the very first written documentation of the teachings of the rabbis, post 70AD (temple destruction). The Mishnah wasn't fully compiled till about 200AD. The Talmud (actually there are two) came after that. But there were writings contemporary to Jesus also.

What stands out for me about Jesus is, he never spoke about anyone coming out of gehenna as some rabbis taught (as Bob's already posted about).

I've been studying Revelation and the second death for about a month now. I don't have anything to post yet, but over on the Miscellaneous Topics thread, there's a link to some interesting lectures on Revelation by G.K. Beale. Check them out. Interesting stuff.

Just some thoughts,
Rick

[Guest]

Regarding the second death, again, here it does not say what happens to those who are found in the book of life (whether they pass through the fire or not). It just says that the ones NOT found in the book are "CAST" in (as in unwillingly).

1. The lake of fire is the second death (Rev. 20:14; 21:8).
2. Those that "overcome" and are written in the book of life do not go through the second death (2:11; 20:6) .
3. Those that are written in the book of life do not enter the lake of fire.

This seems like a pretty solid deduction to me. Using what scripture does say, this seems like the only way to see it.

The lake of fire is for "the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars", not those that have repented of such, and chosen to follow Jesus.

The images of fire and sulfur are in my opinion symbolic. Why those symbols? The Bible teaches that *all* will be salted with fire (Mk. 9:49), and that our (believer) works will be tested with fire. (1 Cor. 3). Note here we see a judgment based on works in Rev 20 as well.

That is true. These are good passages for universalism. However, they are both judgement passages. I don't know what to make of Mk. 9:49. I certainly don't like what most commentators have to say about it (fire preserving bodies in hell for eternity and the like -yikes).

In the context of 1 Cor. 3, I would say that Paul is sticking with the imagry in the earlier verses of things that may or may not stand from the foundation that they have built on Christ. They will be judged. However, this is a different context altogether from the Revelation passages. We are told who does or doesn't (by implication) go into the lake of fire there. We are told the type of people that go there, and it certainly isn't people that are "buliding on the foundation of Christ" (Rev. 21:8).

And I didn't say that the "first death" was death to self, what I said was that the "second death" did not hurt or have power over those who were disciples (who had already purified themselves).

So are you saying that believers have already gone through the second death? We are told that we do not go through that. If we do go through it in this life, and that is what happens in the lake of fire, then this would show that we don't go through the lake of fire (which earlier you said we might, since the bible doesn't explicity say we don't).

Derek, you asked for other views on the second death. I just gave you some speculation. I do not claim to have a full understanding of these things.

Nor do I. Does my debating the issue with you bother you? I am not trying to be off-putting or anything. I just want to know the truth. It's by debating that I came to the Conditional Mortality view (from eternal torment). I am aware that I asked for that, but I thought it was understood that I would want to debate the issue. Sorry if I seem snappy or something. I don't mean too!

What makes sense to me, though, is that when God came up with His grand plan for the creation, it was probably a better plan than one where the majority of His creation either ends up burning forever in Hell or burning for a shorter time and then being extinguished.

While that would be nice, it seems that "few" enter the narrow path, while sadly, "many" enter into destruction (Mat. 7:13-14).

It does not make sense to me that the God who loved His creation so much to send His Son to demonstrate love on the cross would stop loving that creation when it physically died.

I don't think that His giving a guilty criminal justice, for their rejection and rebellion against Him means that He "stops loving them". That is why He is patient, and wishes for all to come to repentence. He loves us, and wants none to perish (which is apparently what happens to those who don't repent).

But that is just what makes sense to me. You may see it differently (and I am fine with that!)

Likewise brother. Your opinion is welcome.

God bless!

[Guest]

I agree that the verses you sited are judgment passages. As is Rev 20. The questions:

1) Are they in any sense purification as well as judgment. Is not the creation being purified when evil is judged?

The creation may be, but in the above passages, it seems that it's being purifyed by the destruction of the people cited in them. It certainly doesn't say that they are being purified (but rather judged -i.e. being killed).

2) In Rev. 20, is the evil what is being destroyed, or the person? (Or both?) Is there anything left of the person after the judgment is complete?

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Well there will be no more death, nor the grave, so I would think that the people thrown in will be no more as well. So both, and nothing.

The bible says (Mt. 10:42, Mk. 9:41) that anyone who gives a cup of water to a disciple in the name of Christ will never lose his/her reward. Does this mean only believers will do this act? Does this mean that a non-believer who does this (or a believer who later falls away) will receive less punishment before being "extinguished"? I don't know.

I don't know what the reward is in those passages, nor do I know how this will affect their punishment. Good question!

Is there anything worth saving of those who are cast into the lake of fire? If so, would God destroy the good with the bad?

I would say that every person on earth is worth saving. Not because of some good in them, but because God loved them enough to die for them. There is nothing in any of us, that merits God's grace. We have to throw ourselves on His mercy. However, many choose not to do that, and instead worship other "gods" (in various forms).

I would not think that there is anything left of those in the lake of fire. They "perish", are "destroyed", "consumed", "die", etc. I don't see how scripture warrants thinking otherwise (aside from perhaps, it's silence on certain particulars).

I think we may be getting away from the topic of the second death here. I would rather this not turn into a debate on universalism per se, but rather the second death, and all three views on that particular concept.

God bless brother,

[Guest]

Quick note.

G.K. Beale, past President of the Evangelical Theological Society and Book of Revelation expert says: The New Heavens and New Earth, the Holy City coming down from God, is the new creation...and the lake of fire is "outside", not in it, nor a part of it....
Link (to thread, with lectures link): http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=2060

Other than that I have to study Derek now!

God bless,
Rick

P.S. Derek, if you find time, could you PM me? Thanks.

[Guest]

Derek,

I do not mind debating with you, as long as we keep it nice (and you always have!).

But I do think you did not read what I said, or I poorly communicated it.

I was NOT trying to make a case for believers going through the lake of fire. I said I did not know whether they did or did not. You used the same verses I did (2:11, 20:6). I noted that the first said overcomers would not be hurt of the second death, the second said the second death has no power over the martyrs of v4. This may very well mean that they do not go through the second death. I am just trying to consider all possible meanings of the words. To say that the second death does not hurt someone, or to say it has no power over him, may mean that the believer has no experience whatsoever of the second death, or it may mean that the second death just doesn't hurt the believer.

I feel like we are getting side tracked, but it is kind of important (in my opinion) to not come to the symbolism with pre-conceived ideas of what the second death is. If we do bring pre-conceived ideas (and are unwilling to question them) why bother to ask the questions?

I will be happy to continue this if my communication skills are up to the task. But from your reaction to my posts so far I feel I am failing miserably. (BTW: I was in no way upset or frustrated with you!)

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

I agree that the verses you sited are judgment passages. As is Rev 20. The questions:

1) Are they in any sense purification as well as judgment. Is not the creation being purified when evil is judged?

The creation may be, but in the above passages, it seems that it's being purifyed by the destruction of the people cited in them. It certainly doesn't say that they are being purified (but rather judged -i.e. being killed).

But there are some important differences between the passages you site and Rev 20.

1) They are judgments on people groups, rather than individuals.
2) It is a temporal judgment, not a final judgment. Every one of the people destroyed will be resurrected and face yet another judgment (why?)

2) In Rev. 20, is the evil what is being destroyed, or the person? (Or both?) Is there anything left of the person after the judgment is complete?

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Well there will be no more death, nor the grave, so I would think that the people thrown in will be no more as well. So both, and nothing.

I fail to see why the fact that there will be no more death (after the second death) means that the people who experience the second death must necessarily cease to exist? If the first death is not final, why MUST the second death be? It may be, I certainly see why you would think it was, but I do not agree that it is of necessity.


Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

G.K. Beale, past President of the Evangelical Theological Society and Book of Revelation expert says: The New Heavens and New Earth, the Holy City coming down from God, is the new creation...and the lake of fire is "outside", not in it, nor a part of it....


Beale has the view on Rev called "idealism" and this view is his opinion and he is no more an expert then countless other people with different views.