Open question about Romans 9-11

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am
Location: Smithton, IL USA

Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Sean » Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:24 am

Question: How does the standard calvinist interpretation of Romans 8:28-9:24 "work" when read in the full context of Romans 9-11.
You can hear James White's take on Romans 9 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKJgC1_6NN0

First, Romans 9. If you like, just accept what James White (or your favorite Calvinist commentary) says it means. Then keep reading. Let's find out what Paul thinks about the non-elect Jew's fate.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


So the "called" have one end, but what about the rest?

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

First, Paul already seems to have stated what the elect or "called" receive from chapters 8-9. Rom 9:24 says they were prepared for glory. So who is it that Paul desires to be saved? Well, Romans 9:6 tells us that not all Israel are of Israel. So Paul, after his discussion through Romans 9 "seems" to tell us the fate of the two classes of Jews (yes, Gentiles get in there too). There are the ones God has compassion on and the ones He hardens ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"). Paul reveals that he desires that they may be saved!

Paul goes on through Romans 10 telling us that they should have known better but they did not. They are disobedient.

Now, it gets interesting. Paul says:

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So it seems those whom God foreknew are not going to be cast away, we all know that. Let's read on...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.



How can Paul say that?! The elect obtained, but the blinded ones Paul says they have not fallen beyond recovery! They are actually to be provoked by the Gentiles coming to salvation. How can someone who is not elect and blinded by God be provoked to jealousy if what is required is that they be "elect" by God from the foundation of the earth?

Paul says it again:

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Tell me. How does Paul think he can provoke the non-elect, blinded by God, "Esau" that God "hates" prepared for destruction Jew to the point of salvation?

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Not only can the non-elect be provoked to turn and be saved, the saved should fear being cut-off!
Note that God is able to graft them in again. Man doesn't graft himself in, God does it. But God can only graft those in do not continue in unbelief. So there is the action of God and the belief of man. Paul's own words refute a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9.

You should be able to see why I am unconvinced of a Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. You've got the non-elect, blinded by God coming to faith! But I thought only the elect were going to be saved? That's why I agree with Steve Gregg that one can move "in Christ" making them elect in Christ, or fall from that position. I believe it because Paul teaches it in the very context and flow of thought of Romans 9!
Last edited by Sean on Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

User avatar
seer
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:16 am
Location: New England

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by seer » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:07 am

First, a couple of questions Sean:
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.


24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

1. What was the call in verse 11 based on? Something in the man? Foreseen in the man?

2. Are the calls spoken of in these two verses universal or specific?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

Troy
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:19 pm

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Troy » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:35 pm

No, Sean's thoughts and questions have priority. After all, he did ask them first. Why not give a geniene reply answering his requests and then ask your question? ;)

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am
Location: Smithton, IL USA

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Sean » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:41 am

Troy wrote:No, Sean's thoughts and questions have priority. After all, he did ask them first. Why not give a geniene reply answering his requests and then ask your question? ;)
That would seem fair. Jim, in your intro thread you said:
seer wrote:... but to be honest sometimes I believe people are just playing games to avoid certain conclusions. I don't have time for that...
I agree. So what is the conclusion you draw from the case I made? Did Paul not say that the non-elect (blinded) can be saved (if they repent)? When I ask questions from you in your threads you don't answer them, you just keep asking more questions (even though I've already given an answer).
Last edited by Sean on Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

User avatar
seer
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:16 am
Location: New England

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by seer » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:18 am

Troy wrote:No, Sean's thoughts and questions have priority. After all, he did ask them first. Why not give a geniene reply answering his requests and then ask your question? ;)

We have to go back to the beginning to get some definitions straight.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

User avatar
seer
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:16 am
Location: New England

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by seer » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:25 am

Sean wrote:
Troy wrote:No, Sean's thoughts and questions have priority. After all, he did ask them first. Why not give a geniene reply answering his requests and then ask your question? ;)
That would seem fair. Jim, in your intro thread you said:
seer wrote:... but to be honest sometimes I believe people are just playing games to avoid certain conclusions. I don't have time for that...
I agree. So what is the conclusion you draw from the case I made? Did Paul not say that the non-elect (blinded) can be saved (if they repent)? When I ask questions from you in your threads you don't answer them, you just keep asking more questions (even though I already given an answer).
This is why my question bears directly on this subject Sean. Do the blinded ones repent while they are blinded? Or does God given them spiritual sight then they repent? And remember we are talking about a people group. Certainly God can graft in those who formerly were blinded - the question is - whose decision is that? That is why my point is important to this discussion.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:19 pm

It is obvious that you have studied Rom 9, 10, and 11, Sean. Thank you for your questions concerning the standard Calvinist explanation of Romans 8:28-9:24 . Good job!

I doubt that any Calvinist can give a satisfrying explanation for his stance.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am
Location: Smithton, IL USA

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Sean » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:59 am

seer wrote: This is why my question bears directly on this subject Sean. Do the blinded ones repent while they are blinded? Or does God given them spiritual sight then they repent?
Romans 9 does not say. But we seem to be told here:

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Paul seems to say that one must turn to the Lord so the veil can be taken away.
seer wrote: And remember we are talking about a people group.
And your point is?
seer wrote: Certainly God can graft in those who formerly were blinded
So God can save the non-elect? Rom 11:7 ...the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

I thought the non-elect were prepared for destruction? If both elect and non-elect are saved then who is not saved?
seer wrote: - the question is - whose decision is that? That is why my point is important to this discussion.
Paul says who's decision it is, both in Romans 9 and in Romans 11:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Yet another passages that makes a distinction between faith and works.

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

What good would it be to provoke someone who is not elect? I thought this was all God's choice. What good would it do to provoke someone who is "dead" to the point of salvation? I could understand maybe praying to God but provoke the man? Why do that if man makes no choice?

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Why warn man to continue in the faith if salvation and faith cannot be lost? Why would Paul make the point that the blinded, non-elect Jews can be grafted in by God (not themselves) if they are provoked by him not continue in unbelief if it were not a choice they make?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am
Location: Smithton, IL USA

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by Sean » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:22 am

Sean wrote:
seer wrote: This is why my question bears directly on this subject Sean. Do the blinded ones repent while they are blinded? Or does God given them spiritual sight then they repent?
Romans 9 does not say. But we seem to be told here:

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Paul seems to say that one must turn to the Lord so the veil can be taken away.
seer wrote: And remember we are talking about a people group.
And your point is?
seer wrote: Certainly God can graft in those who formerly were blinded
So God can save the non-elect? Rom 11:7 ...the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

I thought the non-elect were prepared for destruction? If both elect and non-elect are saved then who is not saved?
seer wrote: - the question is - whose decision is that? That is why my point is important to this discussion.
Paul says who's decision it is, both in Romans 9 and in Romans 11:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Yet another passage that makes a distinction between faith and works.

Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

What good would it be to provoke someone who is not elect? I thought this was all God's choice. What good would it do to provoke someone who is "dead" to the point of salvation? I could understand maybe praying to God but provoke the man? Why do that if man makes no choice?

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Why warn man to continue in the faith if salvation and faith cannot be lost? Why would Paul make the point that the blinded, non-elect Jews can be grafted in by God (not themselves) if they are provoked by him not continue in unbelief if it were not a choice they make?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

User avatar
seer
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:16 am
Location: New England

Re: Open question about Romans 9-11

Post by seer » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:38 am

Paul seems to say that one must turn to the Lord so the veil can be taken away.

1. So blinded ones, can of their own volition, turn to God? That does not make sense. Perhaps it is God who first turns them. Besides, are you suggesting that if God wanted to keep a man blind to spiritual things He couldn't. Remember in Romans 9+10 it is God that is doing the blinding.

I thought the non-elect were prepared for destruction? If both elect and non-elect are saved then who is not saved?

2. That's why I was speaking of a people group. God can graft in Jews again if he so pleases. That does not mean the the individuals of Paul's day, that were prepared for destruction, would be grafted in. It could and probably does include future Jewish generations.

What good would it be to provoke someone who is not elect? I thought this was all God's choice. What good would it do to provoke someone who is "dead" to the point of salvation? I could understand maybe praying to God but provoke the man? Why do that if man makes no choice?

3. Again, we are speaking of a people group. Not all the Jews of Paul's day or future days were/are resistant. And God can use both external means (jealousy) and internal means (instigation of the Holy Spirit) to gather in the elect.


That's enough for now Sean, now could you please answer my questions directly:
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His election would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.


24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


1. What was the call in verse 11 based on? Something in the man? Foreseen in the man?

2. Are the calls spoken of in these two verses universal or specific?
Thanks...
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”