Who Can Come To Christ?

[seer]

John 6:

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus expands

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

I think it is clear. Those who did not believe did not because it was not granted to them by God...

[Sean]

If you want a thorough explanation of the view I hold about the points you make from John,
you can get that here: http://www.geocities.com/bobesay/electionjohn1.html

[seer]

If you want a thorough explanation from a non-Calvinist perspective of the points you make from John,
you can get that here: http://www.geocities.com/bobesay/electionjohn1.html

[/color]

No Sean, I rather if we fleshed it out...

[Sean]

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

I agree. Here is what I believe and why:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

This seems to agree with what Jesus said in chapter 5:

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Jesus said that those to whom He was speaking (God's covenant people, as it were) could not come to Jesus or believe in Jesus unless God grants/draws them. This is the time in Israel's history when the Messiah has appeared, and God is withholding this truth from the unfaithful in Israel. Those who were faithful to the God of Israel were those who are being given to His Son. These people are those who have heard and learned (past tense) from the Father (John 6:45) and now come to Him (present tense). These are the people who are spoken of in chapter 5 that have believed Moses so they also believe Jesus. These are the faithful remnant of Israel (Rom 11:5) that are given by God to His Son:

John 17:6 "They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word."

These people spoken of in the gospel of John were not children of the devil that were taken and given to Jesus. These were the faithful remnant of God who had it revealed to them that this is God's Son, your Lord. The promised Messiah. In fact, Jesus says to those who did not obey Him that they were of their father the devil:

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Those Jews who did not understand/listen were said to be "of their father the devil", where as those who come to Christ do so because they were already God's faithful living Jewish remnant being drawn to their King.

So I don't believe we can take this out of it's historical context and say it applies to all people of all time. This was not spoken to all people. Could Paul have said to a Gentile: 'If you believed Moses then you will believe Jesus words'. That wouldn't make sense. This is speaking about God handing the faithful remnant over to His Son. That's why He spoke in parables, to keep this hidden. Do you think these parables are hidden anymore? People can now read their explanations given by Jesus! Jesus said:

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables

The unfaithful in Israel were set to be judged, so they were blinded.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

[seer]

One quick question Sean before we go on. Christ said that NO MAN can come to him unless the Father draws him... Is that statement universal?

[Sean]

One quick question Sean before we go on. Christ said that NO MAN can come to him unless the Father draws him... Is that statement universal?

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Is this statement universal? Do you understand the problem?

I already answered your question in the last post: "This was not spoken to all people. Could Paul have said to a Gentile: 'If you believed Moses then you will believe Jesus words'. That wouldn't make sense."

[seer]

One quick question Sean before we go on. Christ said that NO MAN can come to him unless the Father draws him... Is that statement universal?

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Is this statement universal? Do you understand the problem?

I already answered your question in the last post: "This was not spoken to all people. Could Paul have said to a Gentile: 'If you believed Moses then you will believe Jesus words'. That wouldn't make sense."

Sean, the word "people" (or men as some texts say) is not in the greek. It literally says "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself." The question is all of what? All men or all the elect.

But back to my point. So when Christ said that NO MAN can come to me... He is really only speaking of all jewish men? Gentile men can come to Him without being drawn?

[Sean]

Sean, the word "people" (or men as some texts say) is not in the greek. It literally says "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself." The question is all of what? All men or all the elect.

I realize that is not in the text but I don't see how in the world that makes a difference, unless we thought He might be talking about dogs or cats. Since "all" is referring to human beings, that would be the correct meaning IMO.

But back to my point. So when Christ said that NO MAN can come to me... He is really only speaking of all jewish men? Gentile men can come to Him without being drawn?

Are you serious?

[seer]

Sean, the word "people" (or men as some texts say) is not in the greek. It literally says "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself." The question is all of what? All men or all the elect.

I realize that is not in the text but I don't see how in the world that makes a difference, unless we thought He might be talking about dogs or cats. Since "all" is referring to human beings, that would be the correct meaning IMO.

But back to my point. So when Christ said that NO MAN can come to me... He is really only speaking of all jewish men? Gentile men can come to Him without being drawn?

Are you serious?

1. It says all Sean. It could very well mean all the elect.

2. Yes I'm serious. You said that whole passage was only refering to jews. So answer the question... please...

[Sean]

1. It says all Sean. It could very well mean all the elect.

It could mean all the elect and it could mean all the non-elect (or both). But why would God need to draw the elect if they will come anyway (once God regenerates them)?

2. Yes I'm serious. You said that whole passage was only refering to jews.

Jesus said:
Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Jesus ministry was first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Are we to take Matthew 15:24 as a universal declaration that Jesus didn't come to atone for Gentile sinners? Every statement has a context. If you go back and read what I said you will find your answer.

But back to my point. So when Christ said that NO MAN can come to me... He is really only speaking of all jewish men?

Jesus was speaking to the people who heard Him speak. I'm talking about the live audience in front of Him. God was giving his people living on earth at that time to Jesus. These people were already the faithful remnant and already belonged to God. This transition occurred only once in history, so to try and make it to apply to another generation would be to take it out of it's historical context for the purpose of making it a proof text for Calvinism, IMO. Jesus said "they were yours and you gave them to me".

Besides, it doesn't work to make this universal. Judas came to Jesus and was given a position among the twelve.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Judas came, so the Father must have drawn him too. Then how could he be cast out?

John 17:12"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

Not one was lost, except one. Hmmm. One out of twelve. If this is universal then Jesus failed to keep them all.

Gentile men can come to Him without being drawn?

Never said that. Arguing how Gentiles are or are not drawn by God using the texts in John 6 would be to argue from silence.