Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

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Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by RickC » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:32 am

Reference for this thread, from P&P blog:
"Taking Calvinism Too Far: RC Sproul Jr.'s Evil-Creating Deity" by Dr. Paul Copan

Dr. Paul Copan addresses several themes; primarily, RC Jr.'s "going too far" for orthodox {or the standardized} Calvinism. I'm not sure if Dr. Copan is a Calvinist himself. If I'm not mistaken, he may take the "middle knowledge" view held by some Calvinists, such as William Lane Craig.

What stood out to me in the blog {that I'm targeting for discussion} begins from where:
Dr. Copan wrote:2. The Manichean error: Sproul Jr., it seems, has pushed things over the orthodox edge by saying that God is the author or creator of evil. This stands in violation of what 1 Timothy 4:4 tells us: “For everything God created is good.” Of course, Augustine fought against the Manichean heresy, which takes evil as a thing rather than the absence or corruption of goodness, but Sproul Jr. seems to be slipping into some version of Manicheanism.
True: as an ex-Manichean, Augustine did, in fact, write much against his former religion.

Where Dr. Copan writes:
"[the] Manichean heresy...takes evil as a thing rather than the absence or corruption of goodness...", he seems to be pointing to Manicheanism's strict dualism: Good versus Evil: Manicheanism's belief that people are predestined to be good or evil and cannot change. In other words, that people are evil because they're predetermined to "be" evil through-and-through and not due to their lack and/or corruption of goodness. This isn't what I want to discuss: Nor Calvinism {in terms of how Calvinists reason and/or explain the T in TULIP}.

What I'm bringing up in particular.
Dr. Copan wrote:...but Sproul Jr. seems to be slipping into some version of Manicheanism.
Calvinism itself is "some version of Manicheanism."
That is, in terms of it's deterministic soteriology, which is inherently Manichean.
Keep reading.

Augustine wrote against Manicheanism at length. His apology against it was strongly pro-Christian. For this, Augustine is to be greatly admired, imo.

However, after his conversion, Augustine retained a basic Manichean presupposition/belief: the {deterministic} predestination of individuals and "carried it over" into his Christianity. In this sense Augustine held onto an integral part of his pagan Manichean worldview.

John Calvin, who revived Augustine's "{Manichean} predestination," and the Calvinists to follow, take-on this Manichean aspect and apparently think it was "in the minds" of first century Jews: the Jewish-Christians, Apostles, and authors of the New Testament. Thus, they read and understand the scriptures through a "Manichean lens." Their soteriology errs, with specific reference to Augustine's Manichean deterministic-predestination.

I don't know how one might go about to trying to convince a Calvinist that Augustine imported predestination from Manicheanism. But on other places on the web {even on P&P, a Calvinist blog}, I've read that former Calvinists have come to see it. Critical thinking is a must, as far as that may go {which can be a long, long ways}....

Understanding the Bible as it was originally meant and understood is what we're supposed to be doing {in our hermeneutics}. I, for one, cannot do it othwerwise! In my studies along these lines, it was fairly easy to trace Augustine's Manichean mistake: We must read theologians {like Augustine...and all of them, for that matter!} in terms of what they originally meant also.

Thanks for reading, :)
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Re: "Taking Calvinism Too Far, God an evil-creating deity"

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:56 am

Well even if God didn't directly create evil He certainly did create the agents that would create evil. And He knew full well what the outcome would be. Joe six pack dies unconverted - God knew from all eternity that Joe would not accept the gospel - yet knowing that end God still allowed (or caused) his birth. And even if old Joe had the power to receive our Lord, God knew he wouldn't - his fate, in the mind of God at least - was certain. If God has absolute foreknowledge of all future events (which He does) I don't think we can escape at least some form of determinism... It is all determined or certain in the mind of God...
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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by RickC » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:07 am

P.S.
I wrote:...Augustine retained a basic Manichean presupposition/belief: the {deterministic} predestination of individuals and "carried it over" into his Christianity. In this sense Augustine held onto an integral part of his pagan Manichean worldview.
Steve Gregg goes into this in several of his lectures. I've heard others explain it also; the very best coming from a former Baptist named Jeff McDonald who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. His free lectures are @ Orthodox Church History. Listen to "St. Augustine of Hippo 385-430 AD" and "The Protestant Reformation 1516". McDonald does a most thorough job of covering how Augustine {and Calvinism by extension "retained Manichean thought"}.

I can't recommend these lectures any more!!!!
{bold because I rilly-rilly MEAN it), ;)

Quick Addendum
Some time back P&P had an EO guest blogger, Dr. Greg Nassif. I asked him if he felt Augustine "imported" Manicheanism with regard to soteriology: In so many words, Dr. Nassif said yes, he did. I got a minor reprimand from C. Michael Patton {who is a Calvinist and an online-friend of mine} for posting that "This is something Calvinists really need look into" because they do! That was the end of this discussion on P&P....
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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by RickC » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:14 am

Hello seer,
You wrote:Well even if God didn't directly create evil He certainly did create the agents that would create evil. And He knew full well what the outcome would be. Joe six pack dies unconverted - God knew from all eternity that Joe would not accept the gospel - yet knowing that end God still allowed (or caused) his birth. And even if old Joe had the power to receive our Lord, God knew he wouldn't - his fate, in the mind of God at least - was certain. If God has absolute foreknowledge of all future events (which He does) I don't think we can escape at least some form of determinism... It is all determined or certain in the mind of God...
No offense intended, but you're not on-topic.

Since you are a Calvinist, I presume that you believe Jesus, the Apostles, and NT authors were "partially Manichean" {as I outlined above}. Do you agree with this?

Some Calvinists go as far as "praising" certain Greek philosophers such as Plato. However, I've never seen any do this for Mani {founder of Manicheanism}.

Some may acknowledge and/or admit that Augustine got his deterministic soteriological ideas from Manicheanism: But I've never encountered a Calvinist that seemed to realize it or to have thought-it-through, back to the true origin of his/her Calvinistic beliefs: Calvinists, Calvin, Augustine, Mani/Manicheans doesn't go back to the first century.

If beliefs have a pagan or partially-pagan origin, that wouldn't necessarily make them wrong: Each case would have to be carefully examined in terms of how strong the pagan influence was {if to the point of heresy or heterodoxy?}.

But since, imo, "partial Manicheanism" can't be found in the minds of Jesus and the first Christians; Calvinists need to deal with this and provide answers. And, as I mentioned before, I've never encountered any Calvinists who have. They may have, and I just don't know it(?).

C. Michael Patton, a Calvinist friend of mine, didn't want to talk about it. Just why not, I can't understand. It might be too painful? or difficult? to look at? I don't know. Btw, Michael was somewhat offended at what I posted on his {P&P} blog...{but we're still friends and so on}. I know that this particular topic was something he didn't want to address at that time, anyway. So I left it there.

Seer: I'd like your thoughts {as the topic isn't "Did God create evil?", etc.}...Thanks, :)
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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by RickC » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:53 am

P.S.S., Anyone
I would really appreciate it if this thread stays on-topic: Thanks in advance, :)
{You can start new threads on what I haven't addressed from Dr. Copan's blog, etc., etc.}.

I just changed the thread title from "Taking Calvinism Too Far, God an Evil-Creating Deity" {the blog reference for the thread's topic}. This should help us speak to it.

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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:30 am

RickC wrote:Hello seer,
You wrote:Well even if God didn't directly create evil He certainly did create the agents that would create evil. And He knew full well what the outcome would be. Joe six pack dies unconverted - God knew from all eternity that Joe would not accept the gospel - yet knowing that end God still allowed (or caused) his birth. And even if old Joe had the power to receive our Lord, God knew he wouldn't - his fate, in the mind of God at least - was certain. If God has absolute foreknowledge of all future events (which He does) I don't think we can escape at least some form of determinism... It is all determined or certain in the mind of God...
No offense intended, but you're not on-topic.

Since you are a Calvinist, I presume that you believe Jesus, the Apostles, and NT authors were "partially Manichean" {as I outlined above}. Do you agree with this?

Some Calvinists go as far as "praising" certain Greek philosophers such as Plato. However, I've never seen any do this for Mani {founder of Manicheanism}.

Some may acknowledge and/or admit that Augustine got his deterministic soteriological ideas from Manicheanism: But I've never encountered a Calvinist that seemed to realize it or to have thought-it-through, back to the true origin of his/her Calvinistic beliefs: Calvinists, Calvin, Augustine, Mani/Manicheans doesn't go back to the first century.

If beliefs have a pagan or partially-pagan origin, that wouldn't necessarily make them wrong: Each case would have to be carefully examined in terms of how strong the pagan influence was {if to the point of heresy or heterodoxy?}.

But since, imo, "partial Manicheanism" can't be found in the minds of Jesus and the first Christians; Calvinists need to deal with this and provide answers. And, as I mentioned before, I've never encountered any Calvinists who have. They may have, and I just don't know it(?).

C. Michael Patton, a Calvinist friend of mine, didn't want to talk about it. Just why not, I can't understand. It might be too painful? or difficult? to look at? I don't know. Btw, Michael was somewhat offended at what I posted on his {P&P} blog...{but we're still friends and so on}. I know that this particular topic was something he didn't want to address at that time, anyway. So I left it there.

Seer: I'd like your thoughts {as the topic isn't "Did God create evil?", etc.}...Thanks, :)
Rick, I'm not aruging about the creation of evil. My point was about determinism. And I don't need Manicheanism or Augustine to make my point. It logically follows if God has exhaustive foreknowledge. It was all determined, known and set in the mind of God a billion years before the first oceans rolled. And it would never be any different... This is the only rational position a biblical Christian can hold - unless one escapes into the heresy of open theism...
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by RickC » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:21 am

Thanks for your reply, seer.
Off-topic but thanks anyway....

Whomsoever,
I just signed Jeff McDonald's site's guestbook.
{Listen to his lectures}!!!
___________________________

Would anyone care to discuss the topic?

On the influence of Manichean thought on Augustine/Calvinism, I would tend to think many Calvinists might cite Josephus' description of the beliefs of the Jews to argue that the Jews---and Christians by extension---were determinists.

This position has been argued, though I don't recall it being presented in rebuttal to the proposition that Augustine's deterministic beliefs on soteriology came from Manicheanism.

Have a good weekend, :)

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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:04 pm

Indeed Rick, Augustine didn't entirely drop his Manichaean beliefs when he turned against his former religion and returned to the catholic church. A chief Manichaean belief was the eternal struggle between good and evil. This was carried over into the church through Augustine's promotion of eternal punishment of the lost. Thus the rebels against God would continue to oppose him forever ---- a concept almost unknown in the church prior to Augustine.

Prior to Augustine, the church believed in the eventual reconciliation of all people to God. After the eternal hell concept entered the church, the previous view was retained, not in its original form of universal reconciliation, but in the form of "purgatory" for the faithful who needed more purification before being ready for heaven..
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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by seer » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:53 am

Paidion wrote: Prior to Augustine, the church believed in the eventual reconciliation of all people to God. After the eternal hell concept entered the church, the previous view was retained, not in its original form of universal reconciliation, but in the form of "purgatory" for the faithful who needed more purification before being ready for heaven..
That simply is not true Paidion. Many early Church fathers before Augustine believe in everlasting punishment. As a matter of fact you have very little evidence of any teaching of universal reconciliation in the first 250 years of the church.

You can find these reference in line in context:

150 AD Second Clement "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5).
150 AD Second Clement "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (Second Clement , 17:7).
150 AD Justin Martyr: "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12).
150 AD Justin Martyr: "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21).
150 AD Justin Martyr: "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (First Apology, 52).
150 AD Justin Martyr: and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII)
150 AD Justin Martyr: And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIX)
150 AD Justin Martyr: while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XX)
150 AD Justin Martyr: For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII)
150 AD Justin Martyr: Nor can the devils persuade men that there will be no conflagration for the punishment of the wicked; as they were unable to effect that Christ should be hidden after He came. But if they believe that there is nothing after death, but declare that those who die pass into insensibility, then they become our benefactors when they set us free from sufferings and necessities of this life, and prove themselves to be wicked, and inhuman, and bigoted. For they kill us with no intention of delivering us, but cut us off that we may be deprived of life and pleasure. (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. LVII)
150 AD Justin Martyr: the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire. (The Second Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)
150 AD Justin Martyr: assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)
150 AD Justin Martyr: And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)
150 AD Justin Martyr: And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments. (The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)
150 AD Justin Martyr: "Trypho," says he, "I am called; and I am a Hebrew of the circumcision,.They affirm that the same things shall always happen; and, further, that I and you shall again live in like manner, having become neither better men nor worse. But there are some others, who, having supposed the soul to be immortal and immaterial, believe that though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is insensible), and that the soul, in consequence of its immortality, needs nothing from God." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. I)
150 AD Justin Martyr: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)
150 AD Justin Martyr: Here Plato seems to me to have learnt from the prophets not only the doctrine of the judgment, but also of the resurrection, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus and the rest have undergone such punishment in Hades, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet and skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head and hands, and feet and skin. But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, and having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body. (Justin's Hortatory Address To The Greeks, Chap. XXVII)
155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).
160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).
177 AD Athenagoras "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).
181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1).
189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).
197 AD Tertullian "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3).
197 AD Tertullian "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13).
212 AD Hippolytus "Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: 'Just if your judgment!' And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3).
226 AD Minucius Felix "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12-5:3).
250 AD Ignatius of Antioch "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24).
252 AD Cyprian of Carthage "Oh, what a day that will be, and how great when it comes, dearest brethren! When the Lord ... [will] cast into hell evildoers and will condemn our persecutors to the eternal fire and to punishing flame!" (Letters 58:10).
307 AD Lactantius "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding for ever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21).
350 AD Cyril of Jerusalem "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19).
452 AD St. Patrick "In everlasting punishment they [the soldiers who murdered my new converts] will become slaves of hell along with him [Coroticus], for truly whosoever commits sin is a slave, and is called a son of the Devil" (Letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus 4).
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Re: Calvinism's Inherent Manicheanism, (from a blog entry)

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:25 pm

I affirm just as strongly, Seer, that what I said about Christians before Augustine believing in the reconciliation of all people to God IS true.

I don't know where you got that quote which you say is from 2 Clement 5:5. I find that according to Lightfoot's translation, 2 Clement 5:5 reads:

And ye know, brethren, that the sojourn of this flesh in this world is mean and for a short time, but the promise of Christ is great and marvelous, even the rest of the kingdom that shall be and of life eternal.

As for the quotes from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, and some of the others, I could comment on those written in Greek, if I had access to transcripts of the manuscipts. Nevertheless, I am guessing that reference to "for ever" and "everlasting punishment" (so translated) are expressions similar to those found in the New Testament, where "for ages" would be a proper translation of the first phase. The second phrase is found in Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says that the "goats" go away into κολασιν ἀιωνιον. The original meaning κολασις was "pruning" as in the pruning of trees to correct their growth. Indeed, most lexicons give "correction" as one of the meanings of κολασις. Now obviously there cannot be "eternal" or "everlasting" correction, for those undergoing it would never actually come to a place where the correction was completed. The adjective ἀιωνιος is derived from the nout ἀιων, the meaning of which is "age". So Jesus said that the goats would to into "agey correction, that is a correction which goes from age to age ---- a very long period of time. All of God's punishments are remedial.

If "everlasting punishment in hell (Gehenna)" were true, surely Paul would have warned against it, but in all 12 of his letters included in the New Testament, he doesn't use the word Gehenna even once. Indeed, in all of the New Testament (other than the gospels) the word is use only once (in James 3:6), and even there the word in not used to warn people about going there.

Yet, going to Gehenna for many ages is a fearful thing, and certainly to be avoided. Jesus definitely warned people about it. The same warning occurs in many of the second-century Christian writers.

It wasn't because of his teaching about the reconcilation of all to God that Origen's writings at a later time, were rejected by the catholic church. Why was that aspect not even mentinioned if it were a problem?

I could quote several early writers who taught universal reconciliation, but I'll keep this thread short, since, we're starting to get off topic. If you want to discuss this matter, maybe you should start a new thread.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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