Predestination

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njd83
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Predestination

Post by njd83 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:06 am

"God does not predestine people to heaven or hell. God predestines people to be holy. To be blameless. To be conformed to the image of Christ. No where in the Bible does God say he predestines people to heaven. That may be the outcome. But that's not what the destination says on the "train-ticket"." -Zac Poonen www.cfcindia.com
And my comment would be, and that type of predestination is by choice. God sees those who would choose him and chooses them. But its in our own power of choice to follow that path. We can choose to stay on that path, and we can choose to leave, "walk out of God's hand" so-to-speak. I mean, Israel did do that, "walk out of God's hand".

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Paidion
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Re: Predestination

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:48 pm

I think the verb προ-οριζω should be translated as "pre-appoint" rather than "pre-destine." Even though an appointment has been made for you beforehand, you do not have to keep that appointment. The root word "ὁριζω" (horizō) from which "horizon" is derived) means "to mark out a boundary or limit."

God makes appointments for us beforehand. He has pre-appointed us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29). But unless we coöperate with His enabling grace, this conforming to the Son will not take place. It is not forced upon us, but it is God's will for us.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:10 pm

Good word study.

I was listening to another message by Zac Poonen on Jude where he was talking about how Jude, paraphrase, "was making effort/trying to write to the church about their common salvation, maybe like a book like Romans" "when a more important/urgent need came up to encourage them to earnestly defend the faith because grace was being turned into licentiousness"

I thought it was interesting because I never picked that up before, that Jude's first intention was to write a letter on their common salvation, but was side-tracked due to those current times

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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:18 pm

“to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose pre-appointed to occur.” (Acts 4:28, NASB95)

“For those whom He foreknew, He also pre-appointed to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;” (Romans 8:29, NASB95)

“and these whom He pre-appointed, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” (Romans 8:30, NASB95)

“but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God pre-appointed before the ages to our glory;” (1 Corinthians 2:7, NASB95)

“He pre-appointed us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” (Ephesians 1:5, NASB95)

“also we have obtained an inheritance, having been pre-appointed according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” (Ephesians 1:11, NASB95)

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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:35 pm

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?” (Romans 11:2, NASB95)

Those whom he foreknew must be those who become conformed the the image of Christ, it seems.

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Re: Predestination

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:46 pm

It is wise to be cautious also concerning the word that has been translated as "foreknew," and not assume God has a foreknowledge of a person that renders his actions inevitable.

If we always translate the word that way, then Paul said that his fellow Jews "foreknew" Paul himself:

My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and at Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews. They have foreknown me from the first, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4,5)

But, no translator renders that same Greek word as "foreknown" in this passage. However, I think this passage helps us to see more clearly what the word actually means. I think it simply means to have previous knowledge of a person.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:13 pm

Yeah I did the Lemma morph search on that Greek word and noticed that verse as well

It seems the situation on the understanding of predestination/foreknowledge is unclear not perfectly understood at best

The fruit of hard line predestiners/foreknowledgers seems to indicate as well something may be wrong with the theology (sorry for the sweeping judgement)

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njd83
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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:47 pm

Word in Blue/Bold is the greek word.

Foreknow, verb, προγινώσκω (proginosko):
① to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of):


“since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.” (Acts 26:5, NASB95)

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;” (Romans 8:29, NASB95)

“God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?” (Romans 11:2, NASB95)

“For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you” (1 Peter 1:20, NASB95)

“You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,” (2 Peter 3:17, NASB95)

Foreknowledge, noun, πρόγνωσις (prognosis):

“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” (Acts 2:23, NASB95)

“according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.” (1 Peter 1:2, NASB95)

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njd83
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Re: Predestination

Post by njd83 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:02 pm

I wouldn't say foreknowledge makes something inevitable. I don't think that applies to God. He does not coerce. God just knows how people will react to him, his grace, or to what fruit of his spirit/his word is being displayed at any particular time, and what amount of witnessing(through his spirit), would bring a person to bow the knee to Jesus as Lord and Savior

that's how I understand it, but I'm not sure exactly....

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Paidion
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Re: Predestination

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:57 pm

God has a complete knowledge of every person, his thoughts, aspirations, intentions, etc. Even we, with our scanty knowledge of other people often predict accurately what they will do in a given circumstance. God, who has complete knowledge of everyone is in a MUCH better position to predict what they will do. But that doesn't mean that God KNOWS in the absolute sense, what they will do. Here is an example:
Jeremiah 3:7 "I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
God is saying the above words. He thought that Israel would return to Him after they did those things. But she didn't return as He had thought. Does that not indicate that He did not KNOW (in the absolute sense of "know") whether or not Israel would return to Him?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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