Lydia's Heart

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Homer
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:43 pm

Paidion wrote:
The words of the gospel alone are insufficient to bring someone into the door of salvation. God has a hand in each and every case of entering that door. Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44)
Paul said "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation". Are you saying the gospel is inadequate? Could it not be the way God draws them?

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Homer
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:58 pm

Robby wrote:
1 John 3:14 speaks of 'a death' and this is none other than spiritual. John only knew of one sin that produces irreconcilable spiritual death, and that's blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. IMHO, regarding 1 John 5:16, this would be the only viable option that squares with scripture.
I think you are mistaken. First of all there is no "a" or "leading"; the Greek is literally "sin to death". I think John is referring to someone willfully and persistently sinning. John seems to be simply saying you can be excused from praying that God will forgive the person in that condition because he will not be. That does not mean that you should not pray that the person will repent.

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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:46 pm

Homer to Robby wrote:I think you are mistaken. First of all there is no "a" or "leading"; the Greek is literally "sin to death".
Of course there is no "a". The indefinite article doesn't exist in Greek. Thus grammatically "θανατον" could be either "death" or "a death."

Also the Greek is not literally "sin to death." The words are "ἁμαρτια προς θανατον" which is literally "sin toward death" and thus can be translated appropriately as "sin leading to death."
Paidion

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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:06 pm

Homer to me wrote:Paul said "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation". Are you saying the gospel is inadequate? Could it not be the way God draws them?
I always took Paul's words in Romans 1:16 to mean that the gospel is the means by which God brings the message of salvation to people. But I think that when a person is about to enter the door of salvation, God is also personally involved. If He were not, I do not think that words alone of any kind would be sufficent to bring the person through that door. So I think that God personally draws the person. Lydia's case is a good example, in which He personally opened her heart.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:21 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
I always took Paul's words in Romans 1:16 to mean that the gospel is the means by which God brings the message of salvation to people. But I think that when a person is about to enter the door of salvation, God is also personally involved. If He were not, I do not think that words alone of any kind would be sufficent to bring the person through that door. So I think that God personally draws the person. Lydia's case is a good example, in which He personally opened her heart.
And what practical difference is there between this and the Calvinist's "regeneration must occur prior to faith"? I'm not saying there is no other way than regeneration, but what might it be? Why does Paul use dunamis concerning the word? And do you believe God works personally in everyone's heart who hears the gospel or only some of them?

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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:05 am

And what practical difference is there between this and the Calvinist's "regeneration must occur prior to faith"?
I think of God's working in the heart of a person and the person entrusting himself to God as occurring simultaneously. This synergy is denied by Calvinism. Calvinists promote the concept of monergy. Paul wrote:
"Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain." (2 Corinthians 6:1) The Greek word translated as "working together" is συνεργουντες (synergountes) from which the English word "synergy" is derived.
I'm not saying there is no other way than regeneration, but what might it be?
I'm not sure what you are asking here. Other than what?
Why does Paul use dunamis concerning the word?
I suppose that Paul is saying that since God is using the gospel as the means of bringing about regeneration, it may be thought of as the power of God Himself. When God opens the heart, as in the case of Lydia, there has to be something TO WHICH He opens the heart. (By the way "dynamis" is the Greek word from which we get "dynamite." The gospel is dynamite!)
And do you believe God works personally in everyone's heart who hears the gospel or only some of them?
I am inclined to think all of them. Some accept the message, responding to God's urging, and others do not. On the other hand, the messenger may be bringing a false gospel, or the true one in such a negative way as to repulse the listener. Possibly God would not work in their heart in these cases.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:23 am

Hi Paidion,

Surprise! I think we are actually in agreement now that I understand your position. But I do have one quibble.

You wrote:
Also the Greek is not literally "sin to death." The words are "ἁμαρτια προς θανατον" which is literally "sin toward death" and thus can be translated appropriately as "sin leading to death."
If I am reading the Greek correctly the preposition pros means "to, toward" according to "Greek Prepositions; Diagram of the Directive and Local Function of Prepositions" so either to or toward is correct.

Have you seen this; pretty neat:
http://www.biblestudysite.com/prepositions.htm

Looking at the info there it is strong support for our understanding of baptism regarding of the use of eis and baptism in the scriptures.

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Paidion
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:48 am

Thank you for the website, Homer! I have learned something today because of that site. All the Greek and Greek texts I have studied say that "προς" takes the accusative case. They make no mention of it taking the genitive case in Acts 27:34 and the dative case in five NT verses. I bookmarked the site for future use. Again, thank you!

Oops. My memory failed in my 77 year-old brain. I just looked the word up in Abbott-Smith and they give all three cases. This jogged my memory that one of my Greek teachers said that with the genitive, the word indicates a motion "from the side of", in the dative a proximity "at the side of" and in the accusative a motion "to the side of" (equivalent to "toward the side of.")

Yes, Greek prepositions are complex, and I find I need to review them pretty often. I have seen charts similar to the one that the site give, though I think the site's chart if more thorough than the ones I have seen.

It is true that with the accusative (the case used in the verse in 1 John 5:16,17) "προς" may be translated as "to" into English, and make perfectly good sense, but "to" is not a different meaning. In those cases it has been translated as "to", it could have been translated as "toward" without a difference in import.

In a different sense of "to", for example, in the sentence, "I will give the book to you," no Greek preposition is used at all. Instead the word "you" is written in the dative case. When that is done, the meaning is either "to you" or "for you" (most often "to you.")
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by dizerner » Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:01 pm

Really nice page on Greek prepositions Homer. 8-) Ah! I see it's Bullinger.

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