The Apostle Paul's Conversion

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Sat May 09, 2015 10:51 am

I think Open Theism is essentially trying to say God has to work within the limits of human understanding.

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Paidion
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Sat May 09, 2015 10:21 pm

I think Open Theism is essentially trying to say God has to work within the limits of human understanding.
Well, human understanding is the only understanding that is available to us, and we should be grateful for it since it is the gift of God to humanity.

I had this understanding concerning the free will which God has granted to us, and the impossibility of knowing in advance a free-will agent's choices, long before I had ever heard of open theism. Once I was expressing these thoughts in this forum when someone (I think it was Steve Gregg) remarked that what I was saying sounded like "open theism." I had to look it up on the web to find out what it was. After I had done this, I realized that, yes, I am an open theist and had been for a long time before having heard of it.

I don't think any open theist is trying to say that God HAS to work within the limits of human undestanding. The chief feature of open theism as I understand it, is that God cares about people and relates to them. He's not some transcendent being that is incapable of emotions or changing his mind as traditional theology would have it. He doesn't ignore man's desires, but responds to them. God didn't want Israel to have a king, but when they insisted on having a king like other nations, God let them have one, but He warned them of the consequences. He also lamented, "But you would not have Me to reign over you." It was in response to the repentance of the Ninevites that God changed His mind, and did not bring about the disaster that He had INTENDED to bring about. It is written that it was in response to Abraham's plea that God agreed not to destroy Sodom if there were a minimal number of righteous persons in these cities. Abraham pleaded with Yahweh until He agreed not to destroy the city even if there were only ten righteous persons in it. This was relationship and interaction between God and Abraham. God seldom acts unilaterally but cares about the concerns of people. Sometimes when God KNOWS that the peoples choices are not the best, He STILL goes along with them. Don't we do that with our children sometimes too? We allow them to have their way at times, hoping that they will learn better from the consequences of their choices.
Paidion

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robbyyoung
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by robbyyoung » Sun May 10, 2015 8:33 am

Paidion wrote:I had this understanding concerning the free will which God has granted to us, and the impossibility of knowing in advance a free-will agent's choices,..."
Hi Paidion, why do you continue to make statements like this when you know scripture refutes this claim?

Examples:

Judas
Pharaoh

Deut 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.

Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.

Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

Of course there are many, many, more examples to cite! Therefore, I don't why you continue to make the claim, "the impossibility of knowing in advance a free-will agent's choices".
Paidion wrote:I don't think any open theist is trying to say that God HAS to work within the limits of human undestanding. The chief feature of open theism as I understand it, is that God cares about people and relates to them. He's not some transcendent being that is incapable of emotions or changing his mind as traditional theology would have it.
Clearly, God did and does change HIS mind, we should praise HIM for it! But to suggest that HE didn't know HE was going to change HIS mind is ludicrous. This would imply that God DOES NOT know SELF! Now how can God NOT know His own thoughts when He declares, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'"

And furthermore... "For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

God Bless.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Sun May 10, 2015 3:34 pm

Well, human understanding is the only understanding that is available to us, and we should be grateful for it since it is the gift of God to humanity.
This is a fundamental source of our disagreements. God's Word reveals things to me that I would never come by with human understanding. We can argue over interpretation and the level of inerrancy, but to me, without a fundamental intent to respect the inspiration, God's Word will always be a closed book, and disrespecting it will always lead one into error.

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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Sun May 10, 2015 4:17 pm

Robby wrote:Hi Paidion, why do you continue to make statements like this [the impossibility of knowing in advance a free-will agent's choices] when you know scripture refutes this claim?
I continue to repeat such statements because they are logically true, and I have repeatedly explained why they are true.
Examples:

Deut 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
This was a prediction, and not a statement about the actual future. Because God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart, He is in a MUCH better position to make predictions which turn out to be true than we. Indeed, I think most of His predictions turn out to be true, but not all. I have offered several examples of ones that didn't and you attempt to deny my position with the ludicrous argument that He knew all along that they wouldn't turn out to be true. If He knew it all along, why would He make such predictions in the first place? Indeed, if He knew it all along, then He must have lied.
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.
If you take the trouble to look this verse up in context, you will see that it does not mean that God declares every event in the universe from beginning to end. I know that is a common misinterpretation. You will find out that it is saying that God declares the end from the beginning of His PLANS. When He makes plans, He is able to declare every aspect of those plans. In no way does this passage remotely suggest that God knows what free-will agents will choose.
Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
I don't see why this would suggest to you that God knows in advance what free-will agents will choose. Take it for what it says! Before we are able to speak out thoughts, God knew completely what we were thinking. It doesn't say that God knew our thoughts BEFORE WE THOUGHT THEM!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Homer » Sun May 10, 2015 5:11 pm

Robby wrote:
Hi Paidion, why do you continue to make statements like this [the impossibility of knowing in advance a free-will agent's choices] when you know scripture refutes this claim?

(paidion)
I continue to repeat such statements because they are logically true, and I have repeatedly explained why they are true.

You will find out that it is saying that God declares the end from the beginning of His PLANS. When He makes plans, He is able to declare every aspect of those plans. In no way does this passage remotely suggest that God knows what free-will agents will choose.
Well, are we to believe that it was not inevitable that Jesus would give His life on the cross, that it could have turned out otherwise despite it being God's plan before the world was created? Or that, on the other hand, Jesus did not have free will and freely choose to die for our sins? I believe the scriptures inform us that God not only planned it but in God's mind it had already occurred before the world came into existence.

God planned it and knew of it before it happened:

Revelation 13:8 (NKJV)

8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Acts 2:23 (NKJV)

23. Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Although God knew of it the same as if it had already happened, Jesus still gave His life of His own free-will:

John 10:17-18 (NKJV)

17. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

And Judas part in the matter was known beforehand, was inevitable, and Judas acted freely:

Acts 1:15-16 (NKJV)

15. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16. “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;


God can know prior to our decisions what we will decide.

I believe we keep trying to confine God to our space/time box and He is a bit too big for it.

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The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by robbyyoung » Sun May 10, 2015 6:19 pm

Paidion wrote:I continue to repeat such statements because they are logically true, and I have repeatedly explained why they are true.
Hi dear brother, logical claims DOES NOT imprison God to His creation. For example, there is absolutely NO LOGIC in speaking something into existence by the shear power of YOUR WORD. Totally illogical, right? But if you can believe this, why can't you believe that God knows all things? Also, there is NO LOGIC in raising a dead person back to life, or, creating out of thin air, fish and freshly baked bread from scraps! Leave your LOGIC at the door when approaching The One who needs NO counsel or who's ways are past finding out.

IMHO, your understanding leaves God a prisoner to His own creation. Everyone have given you plenty of scripture to prove that God not only knows the future, but that NOTHING is HIDDEN FROM HIM. Yes, we need to throw our logic out of the window - or else we are telling God, NO, things in YOUR creation ARE hidden from you, my human logic demands it, therefore God, YOU are mistaken. As a matter of fact, God, YOU have know absolute knowledge, only a 99.9% chance of predicting, correctly, what I'm going to do tomorrow and the day after that, and so on... You see God, YOU are a slave to your creation and our logic.

Furthermore, logic is only relevant to the laws of the physical universe. The Spiritual Realm will always void the Logic of our Physical world. God IS NOT at the mercy of logic used to govern aspects of HIS creation. This is why the atheist scientific world will be forever "tumbling down the rabbit hole" of discovery which has NO END, blinded by their unbelief using logic that DO NOT fit the origins debate, when THEY KNOW, obviously, something absolutely came out of NOTHING, which is 100% illogical TO THEM. Just like God knowing all things is illogical TO YOU. So what do you fear that you would make God subordinate to your ACTUAL intentions?

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Paidion » Sun May 10, 2015 7:52 pm

Robby, you wrote:Hi dear brother, logical claims DOES NOT imprison God to His creation. For example, there is absolutely NO LOGIC in speaking something into existence by the shear power of YOUR WORD. Totally illogical, right?


Wrong. There is nothing illogical about someone speaking something into existence. It is outside our direct experience, but there is nothing illogical about it. A clear example of an illogical statement would be, "God is omnipotent, and so He can create a rock so large that He cannot lift it." But let's say, Joe Bloe doesn't consider this statement to be illogical, and claims that those who believe God cannot create such a rock, do not believe in the omnipotence of God. This is totally analagous to the idea that if God cannot know the future choices of free-will agents, then He is not omniscient.
But if you can believe this, why can't you believe that God knows all things?
God speaking something into existence is not illogical. We cannot do it, but God can. And I believe He did. Furthermore, I do believe that God knows all things. But the future choices of people are not included in the set of all things. For these choices have not yet been made, and so they do not yet exist. The fact that God does not know them does not limit the universality of God's knowledge. I'm sure you agree that God does not know that you are now standing on the top of Mount Everest. Does that mean that He is not omniscient? The reason God doesn't know that you are standing on the top of Mount Everest, is that you are not standing there. So there is nothing to know. Likewise, the reason God doesn't know what you will choose tomorrow, is that you haven't made any choice yet. So there is nothing to know.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Sun May 10, 2015 10:03 pm

I think you have a decently logical case, but I don't see how you can prove the future or past doesn't exist for all beings. I do think Scripture clearly shows God having future knowledge about some free-will agents, but that aside for now, how can you prove that the present is all that exists to all beings? Whatever mysterious way our faculty of consciousness interacts with time and space, how can you possibly prove it's the only reality or indicator of "now." The theory of relativity tells us that not everyone's now is exactly the same, indeed that time is passing at different rates according to the relative state of the observer. Under this theory it would be possible, without using the supernatural, that in a galaxy far away our own sense of now would be simultaneous with the aliens past. If we add in the supernatural, why couldn't God currently be in the future as we speak? I don't really see a logical reason he couldn't, indeed, I believe he is the I am, and that Jesus Christ is (present tense) the same yesterday, today and forever in his divine nature.

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Homer
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Homer » Mon May 11, 2015 10:32 am

Hi Paidion,

I would like to hear your response (or any open theist) to my last post re Jesus death. Thanks

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