The Apostle Paul's Conversion

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Wed May 13, 2015 5:15 pm

But if you agree with me that we are time bound, then so are all creation and events time bound.
How do you make this logical connection:

1. Humans are time bound.
2. If humans are time bound, all of creation and events must be too.

Why do you think step 1 logically leads to the conclusion in step 2? I can't see any reasonable inference and you gave no arguments at all.
'I' am not the person suggesting time travel. And 'I' am 'not' the one suggesting different points on a time line as a reality. I am saying it is absurd.
I'm not either. It's simple logic, that if God is at all times and places he doesn't need to travel anywhere.

Can you explain to me, in any way whatsoever, how the logic of what I said, leads you to deduce that God time travels? Does he need to time travel to a time he already exists in? I agree what you're saying is absurd, I just have no idea how you can compare it to what I said.
2. Or as your illustration suggests He knows it because it has happened: As your illustration suggests, just as God sees the already happened past, God sees the ________ future.

There is no alternative: something is either predicted to happen / or it has happened
But this is from a human perspective. How can you insist God must have a human perspective? Humans are this way, so God has to be too? :shock: :?
There is nothing in the future for God to see, or hear, or touch.
God does not have a central nervous system conveying electronic impulses from various parts of a body. When I say God sees the future, I mean as a disembodied spirit he knows all things that ever were or ever will be. He is distinct from creation entirely (time is a creation) and his attributes cannot be limited by what limits our perceptions. He is no more subservient to a temporal location as humans are than a physical location, as humans are.
Last edited by dizerner on Wed May 13, 2015 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dizerner

Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by dizerner » Wed May 13, 2015 5:32 pm

jriccitelli wrote:we should stay within a logical realm, and within reason, since God has revealed Himself, and put us in, a reasonable logical realm.
You'd agree there are things about God we could never understand, right? I think you would, even though God makes himself understandable to us on some level. He wouldn't be much of a God if he had to always fit within what we think is logical.
What steps into absurdities - is suggesting that the future actually happened (that makes the word future ambiguous, if not meaningless). You are now saying God only sees them (as in a vision, or in His mind). Then I would agree, this is an abstract future, and it is what I am saying: God predicts what He wants to do, or more correctly KNOWS what He will do, and He will bring it to pass.
Okay, so you do affirm standard omniscience then as far as I can understand you. We have that in common I think.
There is no future selves that have done or participated in any real event outside of time or in the present now.
I agree from the human perspective there is no future or past, only an ever-changing now. But I don't think you can prove that your human perspective is the only reality that all other realities must be subservient to.

On an interesting related note, this is a native culture that actually sees time as going backwards—they see the past as their future, because you can usually see what's ahead of you.
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/archive/newsre ... ture06.asp

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Homer
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by Homer » Tue May 19, 2015 11:49 pm

A couple questions:

Did God and/or Jesus have foreknowledge regarding Judas' betrayal of Jesus?

Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a free will act?

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robbyyoung
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Re: The Apostle Paul's Conversion

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 20, 2015 10:15 am

Homer wrote:A couple questions:

Did God and/or Jesus have foreknowledge regarding Judas' betrayal of Jesus?

Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a free will act?
Hi Homer,

Did God and/or Jesus have foreknowledge regarding Judas' betrayal of Jesus?

Yes.

John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.... John 13:26-30
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Psa. 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a free will act?

Yes. God's knowledge confirmed Judas' choices.

God Bless.

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