A Simple Argument for Open Theism

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mattrose
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by mattrose » Sat May 03, 2014 12:38 pm

Singalphile wrote:Regarding the proof: I agree with backwoodsman and Steve's thoughts about 1 Cor 13. I tend not to like putting separate passages by separate authors together like that.
While I wholly agree that such cross referencing needs to be done carefully... I don't think anyone would argue that it shouldn't be done. We believe in the canon of Scripture. And we believe that words mean things. Once we interpret what it means for John to say that "God is love" and what it means to say that "Love is ______" then we can do the careful work of deciding how the passages might best relate to one another. In my opinion, there is a deep relationship.

The questions that puzzle my little mind:

Does God know everything that He Himself will ever allow, cause, or communicate (i.e., "do" or "say")?
That means that God knows what decisions He will make before He makes them?
My answer to what I take to be your question would be...

Open theists believe that the future is partially open and partially secured. So there are SOME things He knows He will allow, cause, or communicate and there are OTHER THINGS He hasn't decided yet whether He will allow, cause, or communicate. There may even be some things that fit both categories (He knows generally that He will do something, for instance, but is remaining undecided on exact details).

What God doesn't know is what genuinely free creatures will decide, but it should also be considered that 1) our freedom is not without limits (we have a limited number of choices for a variety of reasons) and 2) our degree of freedom varies (we can become hardened, for example, and less free to choose wisely). Because of these truths, in many cases God knows what individual human beings will do even before they do them (even we humans can do that sometimes).

steve7150
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by steve7150 » Sat May 03, 2014 2:00 pm

2. Love trusts and hopes (1 Cor. 13:7)











I think love is willing to trust and hope but is this always a necessity for love to exist? Can love exist in a condition where it trusts and knows rather then hopes.
Or where it knows about certain things and hopes about other things? Perhaps OT is a better fit for "love" because God must exhibit more trust and hope but can this be seen as a proof?

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sat May 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Matt, you wrote:Open theists believe that the future is partially open and partially secured.
That is true for SOME open theists. Others (and I may be one of them) believe that the future is FULLY open. Scriptures from the Old Testament indicate that even when God has decided to do a thing, He sometimes changed His mind and didn't do what He had intended to do.

One might say that God's plan of the ages, the reconciliation of all people to God, is a plan which will surely be realized. I agree. But does God know WHEN it will come to pass. Does He know exactly when the last person will choose to repent and submit to Him? It seems to me that He doesn't, since this is a free-will decision of man.

Can you think of some future event which God knows that will surely come to pass at a particular time? It would surely be an event which He Himself will cause to occur. But what could that event be?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Homer » Sat May 03, 2014 9:23 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
One might say that God's plan of the ages, the reconciliation of all people to God, is a plan which will surely be realized. I agree. But does God know WHEN it will come to pass. Does He know exactly when the last person will choose to repent and submit to Him? It seems to me that He doesn't, since this is a free-will decision of man.
But if the future is truly open, as you say, and man truly has free will, as you also say, then He not only can not know when people will repent, He can not know if they will repent (and neither can you).

If He knows every last one will repent then they are not free, according to your own arguments about God knowing whether I will choose a tuna sandwich next time I go to town. In either case, if He knows they have no other choice.

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sat May 03, 2014 9:55 pm

I know you don't like my dice analogy, Homer. But if I throw 100 dice, I know it is highly unlikely that all sixes will turn up. Yet, it is possible. But the probability (if I have calculated correctly) is only about 1 in 65exp107, that is, 1 in 65 followed by 107 zeroes. However I KNOW that if the hundred dice continue to be thrown, that eventually ALL will turn up as sixes.

Now you have correctly pointed out to me in the past that dice are not people. Dice do not have free wills as do people. However, I think the analogy is good in the sense that a highly unlikely future event can be known in advance, given sufficient time.

Consider that God who is pure LOVE, "is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentence" (2 Peter 3:9). This being the case, the God of love will taken action. He will continually work toward the repentance of every person. He may even send the perfected sons of God (for whom the whole creation is groaning and eagerly awaits their manifestation (Romans 8:17-22) to minister to the lost. God's love never fails. He will do whatever it takes to bring his creation under his authority. How could anyone hold out forever? If someone could, while God works for his repentance, he prove to be mightier than God.

Thus God KNOWS that eventually ALL will repent. What He does not know is when the decision to repent will be made for any given individual.
Paidion

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Singalphile
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Singalphile » Sun May 04, 2014 1:01 am

mattrose wrote:

So there are SOME things He knows He will allow, cause, or communicate and there are OTHER THINGS He hasn't decided yet whether He will allow, cause, or communicate. ...

What God doesn't know is what genuinely free creatures will decide ....
Ah, including His own decisions, I suppose. That would seem to make sense.

I suppose that many books exist on the subject. I should read more.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

paulespino
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by paulespino » Sun May 11, 2014 1:19 am

New Living Translation
Matthew 10:30
And the very hairs on your head are all numbered.

Luke 12:7
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But every hair of the hairs of your heads is numbered, therefore you shall not be afraid, because you are better than a multitude of sparrows.”

ESV
Psalm 139 :1-6
O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
The verses above tells us that God knows everything. I believe that even God knows everything He can choose not to know certain things if He wants to. There are things that God does not know because He decided not to know it in order not to violate our free will.

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sun May 11, 2014 8:15 am

Paul, all open theists believe that God knows everything. It's just that they don't believe God knows what a person will choose in the future, since there is nothing to know. For the person has not yet made his choice.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
Since God can read our minds, He can predict what we are going to say. Of course, sometimes we might change our mind at the last moment.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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paulespino
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by paulespino » Sun May 11, 2014 10:49 am

Since God can read our minds, He can predict what we are going to say. Of course, sometimes we might change our mind at the last moment.
Hi Paidion,

But what I'm trying to say is that God has the ability to look 1 year ahead of my actions and be able to see every single move,
every single decisions and every single change of my mind at the last moment with 200% accuracy, God has the ability to do all of these even if I have not done anything yet.
The only reason why God will not know anything is because He decided not to know it and God has the power to know or not know ( control ). God has a control over His power.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
In this verse David did not say that he thought of the words but has not yet spoken it, David could also be saying that before he "Think" and before he spoke of it. God has the ability to know what David will be thinking before he even think ( God can know everything but He decided not to). I think to say that David has "thought" of the words is an extrapolation.

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Paidion
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Re: A Simple Argument for Open Theism

Post by Paidion » Sun May 11, 2014 12:42 pm

Paul wrote:But what I'm trying to say is that God has the ability to look 1 year ahead of my actions and be able to see every single move,
every single decisions and every single change of my mind at the last moment with 200% accuracy, God has the ability to do all of these even if I have not done anything yet.
How do you know that? There is no scripture that explicitly and unequivocally states such.

If God knows that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M., then it is now true that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
If it is now true that you will raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M., then you cannot refrain from raising your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
Therefore you do not have the ability to choose not to raise your hand tomorrow at 10 A.M.
Apply this to all of your other actions which God "sees" in advance, and you have no free will.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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