One Question

[alastairblake]

am i not recognizing an implication?

[alastairblake]

Well then it would seem that many incidents in the bible that God predicted beforehand that required overthrowing of entire nations required the lack of free will. Like the fall of Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome, Jerusalem (twice), the fact that Israel would reject God, ask for a king like all the nations, etc. How did God know all these things if in fact there was nothing to know? He sure did a good job of knowing the unknowable.

Also, I believe people's choice is (at least for the most part) free because I believe God's foreknowledge is passive. In some, perhaps a number of times God actively works throughout history to bring about a desired outcome which certainly can and does limit free choices of man. Put another way, I believe God foreknows what men will freely choose. And in some cases He interviens to limit mans choices. He seems to do this whether or not He can know the future.

To make this case I would point out this passage:

1 Samuel 23:9 When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” 10 David said, “LORD, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. 11 Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? LORD, God of Israel, tell your servant.”

And the LORD said, “He will.”

12 Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”

And the LORD said, “They will.”

13 So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.


But what God said would happen did not occur. Why not? I thought if God knows what will happen then people's choices are not free? You see, if God actually tells you what will happen, you can take that knowledge and change the future! Interesting, but simple. God knows what will happen, if He decides to tell us what's going to happen we can use this knowledge to change what "should have" happened, just as in the case above. If David would have stayed they would have handed him over to Saul. At least it seems that way to me.

Sean, I think I feel as you do on the matter.

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

The meat of the matter is not God's omniscience, but whether what appears to be statements about the future, have truth value. I may utter the sentence, "I will go to town tomorrow." Does this mean the statement has truth value NOW?

What is left out of your thinking is that God might not only know what you will do tomorrow, but also what you will freely decide to do tomorrow. And perhaps tomorrow is NOW with God.