Sean wrote:Just for clarity, from what I understand Classical Arminianism does hold to total depravity but I do not. Originally I did hold to total depravity, but I don't anymore. I generally don't label myself Arminian, I'm usually labeled one though.
Yeah, many people today have misconceptions about Arminianism, and will wrongly label any non-Calvinist an Arminian. It sounds like when it comes to man's nature, you're either a Pelagian or Semi-Pelagian. I know you don't want to label yourself, but could you tell me which of those two views more lines up with yours?
Sean wrote:You could call me a synergist, but I would protest this label as well, since to meet a condition (faith) for regeneration to occur does not mean I worked with God to regenerate myself. Nor does it mean I played any role in the act of regeneration itself.
I think your view falls in line with the classical meaning of the term. And I don't think it carries any connotative baggage.
Sean wrote:So this gets to the heart of the debate. What is the logical order? regeneration=>faith or faith=>regeneration? Reformers say one and I say the other. If faith logically precedes regeneration then TD is a moot point, IMO.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure whether or not Arminians would call prevenient grace "regeneration." But even if they do, I don't think they'd say TD is a "moot point." I think TD really gets to the heart of the nature of man, and while if faith precedes regeneration TD is moot when it comes to salvation, it still has a tremendous impact on anthropology. That's why I want to know whether your view is more akin to Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism.
Sean wrote:I base my position on passages like this:
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses
I was raised through faith, I was made alive having been forgiven my trespasses. An event that only takes place when faith is present:
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
My sins are covered when I was made alive (regenerated) after formerly being dead in trespasses
My sins are covered when faith is present
So faith has to be present for regeneration to occur.
From what I have read, the Reformed position has regeneration separate from justification. So logically speaking, we are born again & still dead in sin. Interesting.
I'd be happy to discuss those passages with you over email, as I explained, but I don't have the discipline right now to discuss them in a public forum like this one. What I've been interested in this thread is whether or not TD has ever been predominantly the view that men will tend toward atheism. I know that since you're neither Arminian nor Calvinist, you don't believe in TD, but I'd still like to reach a point where we agree that TD is not what you thought it was.