The Narrow Path Ministries

Unbelievable radio broadcast wrote:Calvinism is most often defined by its belief in predestination. Calvinist James White of Alpha and Omega ministries explains why he believes Calvin was right when he claimed that God's will alone controls the eternal destiny of humans. Roger and Faith Forster of the Ichthus Christian fellowship defend an Arminian view - that human freewill is part of God's grace when it comes to human salvation.

Link to Unbelievable! UK radio program --
http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable?mod_page=7
(scroll to 1 August 2009)
Also, a week later they debated Eternal Conscious Torment (White) and Conditional Immortality (Forsters) @ worth a listen too.

Those of us who have heard White before -- (like when he debated Steve) -- probably won't hear much anything new. The Forsters offered some new ways of seeing Arminianism and/or non-Calvinism (which I found insightful and quite comforting). 'Might want to take a Tums before listening. White argued with typical Calvinistic redundancies, and was more 'irenic" than I had ever heard him before. Still rather caustic, but no one's perfect.....

Thanks

Thanks for posting! I'll have to check this out.

Yes, I thought Dr. White was more calm than usual when I listened to this debate. Maybe because one of his opponents was a lady, and she and her husband were both gentle-spirited.

Thanks for posting this. It is something I am still struggling with. I feel the God who James White presents isn't good, but scripturally, I am almost convinced that this is the accurate portrait of God. What do you do when you are convinced that the accurate image of God doesn't seem good? It makes it hard for me to want to love God.

I'll tune in to this debate.

Thanks for posting again, and keep posting more debates.

Sincerely,
Chris

Greetings (rather late reply) ---
You're welcome for the link, Jeff and Chris.
It was DarinHouston (TNP Forum mod) who initially linked me/us to Unbelievable!

(Thanks Darin),

Chris --
One thing I keep in mind about 'Calvinism' is that it didn't exist till the 4th century. That is, what would later become 'Calvinism' was first introduced by Augustine ('Calvinism' is essentially a 'revival' of Augustinian soteriology). The Early Church Fathers before Augustine taught 'free will'. They, of course, weren't Arminians, as neither Calvinism/Augustinianism nor Arminianism existed then. I personally view Calvinism as a belief system with roots going back to gnosticism, as Augustine brought over gnostic-like concepts into his theology (a 'layover' of his being a former gnostic/Manichean).

You wrote:I feel the God who James White presents isn't good, but scripturally, I am almost convinced that this is the accurate portrait of God. What do you do when you are convinced that the accurate image of God doesn't seem good? It makes it hard for me to want to love God.

I may know how you feel. When I carefully examined Calvinism I wondered if, if it were true, would I be a Christian? Would I want to be a Christian? I have my doubts. To me, gnosticism would almost seem to be a better option! Gnosticism, as you may know, rejected the OT God, seeing him as the Demiurge ("half-worker" or "half-creator"). The Demiurge (OT Creator God) was seen as a cruel, somewhat unintelligent, lower deity (as contrasted to the highest divine essence, sometimes called the "Pleroma (fullness)" or the "All"). But alas, I didn't find Calvinism to be true (scripturally sound), nor personally appealing.
And I couldn't be gnostic for other reasons.
I don't have all the answers.
So I just keep studying....

I'm reminded of something Greg Boyd said in a lecture about Open Theism. At one time, he was a Calvinist "for exegetical reasons." He went on to comment how he understands how someone could arrive at Calvinism, how they are interpreting the scriptures, as he had done the same himself. He went on to say about Calvinism, "But what I didn't understand, and still don't understand, is how anyone can like it!"
[insert audience laughter -- it was really funny ].
You might find Greg's talk interesting also.
It's on this forum board: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=3025
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An Interesting Side-Note --
White debated the Forsters on Hell (scroll to 8 August 2009). The two debates kind of link together/overlap. Strangely, White used argumentation from UR (Universal Reconciliation, or Universalism) to attempt to refute CI (Conditional Immortality). If I'm not mistaken, Roger Forster replied that in his research, UR was also a late coming doctrine in Church History.

Btw, I updated the OP (to the correct page 7, which will change as they have more programs).

RickC wrote: I may know how you feel. When I carefully examined Calvinism I wondered if, if it were true, would I be a Christian? Would I want to be a Christian? I have my doubts.

If Calvinism is true, would you have a choice?

Good point, Michelle! LOL

If Rick were one of the elect, he couldn't have chosen otherwise, and if he were one of the ones chosen for eternal hell, it couldn't be otherwise.

I once asked my oldest brother, who was a Calvinistic Baptist preacher, why he bothered to preach at all. Since everyone was already predestined for heaven or everlasting hell anyway, his preaching would change nothing. He replied, "Because I was predestined to do so."

Michelle -

Sorry I haven't been back till now.
Paidion basically gave 'an answer' I might give.

Otherwise, I'm pretty well much 'past' internal conflicts that 'come up' with these kinds of topics. Not saying I have all the answers, or that I don't occasionally experience these conflicts (to a degree sometimes). Am still studying. And it's very nice not to 'have' to be an Arminian or a Calvinist....(for real)!!!