1 Corinthians 2:14

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seer
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:35 am

Take a given tree -- God created it -- it brings Him pleasure to see the leaves fall -- do you believe He purposefully directs each leaf to fall and dictates its path or do you think God derives joy from the unexpected - if so, is God powerful enough to "not know" something particular if it brings Him "personal" pleasure to see the outcome (or is He some all-powerful force de automaton) ? At what point does your view of God's meticulous providence end ?
Darin, you don't mean this do you? Do you really believe that things catch God off guard? That He is really clueless?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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seer
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:38 am

Since you keep saying this, and since I don't see it taught by Scripture but being said to somehow logically follow (from something, I know not what), I believe we need you to provide the syllogism, because I don't see the logical necessity.


Did you do something to save yourself - yes or no... Something that your lost neighbor did not do?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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darinhouston
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:43 am

seer wrote:
Since you keep saying this, and since I don't see it taught by Scripture but being said to somehow logically follow (from something, I know not what), I believe we need you to provide the syllogism, because I don't see the logical necessity.


Did you do something to save yourself - yes or no... Something that your lost neighbor did not do?
I walked to the fridge and got some milk a moment ago -- nothing to boast about, but I got the milk. Where's the syllogism ? Assuming your logic is ok, there must be a premise we disagree with.

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darinhouston
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:44 am

seer wrote:
Take a given tree -- God created it -- it brings Him pleasure to see the leaves fall -- do you believe He purposefully directs each leaf to fall and dictates its path or do you think God derives joy from the unexpected - if so, is God powerful enough to "not know" something particular if it brings Him "personal" pleasure to see the outcome (or is He some all-powerful force de automaton) ? At what point does your view of God's meticulous providence end ?
Darin, you don't mean this do you? Do you really believe that things catch God off guard? That He is really clueless?
You didn't answer the question.

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Sean
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by Sean » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:18 am

If a beggar receives a gift does that mean he earned it? Does that make him an employee of the giver? Is his gift taxable income? Or is it no longer a gift if he accepts it?
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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darinhouston
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:34 pm

Tell me this, Seer --

Do you make choices throughout a given day whether to follow Christ's teaching ? When (if) you do and God blesses your obedience through spiritual growth or otherwise, do you boast in your decision -- do you have a reason to boast ?

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seer
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:19 pm

darinhouston wrote:
seer wrote:
Since you keep saying this, and since I don't see it taught by Scripture but being said to somehow logically follow (from something, I know not what), I believe we need you to provide the syllogism, because I don't see the logical necessity.


Did you do something to save yourself - yes or no... Something that your lost neighbor did not do?
I walked to the fridge and got some milk a moment ago -- nothing to boast about, but I got the milk. Where's the syllogism ? Assuming your logic is ok, there must be a premise we disagree with.

A. Receiving / Loving Christ is an autonomous act of your will.
B. Receiving / Loving Christ is a supreme good.
C. Supremely good acts are meritorious.

Here, autonomous meaning that one can accept or reject.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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seer
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by seer » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:22 pm

darinhouston wrote:Tell me this, Seer --

Do you make choices throughout a given day whether to follow Christ's teaching ? When (if) you do and God blesses your obedience through spiritual growth or otherwise, do you boast in your decision -- do you have a reason to boast ?

From where comes my power to obey? From where comes my desire to obey? If I can't rightly find them in me, but in God as He lives through me, then where is the boasting?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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darinhouston
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:54 pm

seer wrote:
darinhouston wrote:Tell me this, Seer --

Do you make choices throughout a given day whether to follow Christ's teaching ? When (if) you do and God blesses your obedience through spiritual growth or otherwise, do you boast in your decision -- do you have a reason to boast ?

From where comes my power to obey? From where comes my desire to obey? If I can't rightly find them in me, but in God as He lives through me, then where is the boasting?
If I also recognize no power within me to choose to follow Christ but in God who provides me with the grace to choose Him, why is it that you think I have something to boast about? I believe that grace is provided to all men in sufficient measure - not all men allow that grace to work through them to choose Him just as not all Christians allow God's grace to work them at all times to do His will. How is it that you somehow feel no boasting but don't recognize my own lack of boasting?

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darinhouston
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Re: 1 Corinthians 2:14

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:24 pm

seer wrote: A. Receiving / Loving Christ is an autonomous act of your will.
B. Receiving / Loving Christ is a supreme good.
C. Supremely good acts are meritorious.

Here, autonomous meaning that one can accept or reject.
A=X; A=Y; therefore Y=Z isn't proper.

The logic's a bit flawed here, so it's difficult to tell which is your main premise, but let's look at each statement individually...

A. I never said it's autonomous -- it's just not coerced (there's a big difference).
B. I'm not sure what "supreme good" means -- receiving/loving is commanded and pleases God, but you'll have to explain this further. I understand Calvin used this term to refer to Divinity itself. This may be one of the greek constructs from Augustine et al. -- I just don't know.
C. This may depend on your definition of supreme good, but what's your basis for this ?

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