1 Corinthians 2:14

[seer]

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The question is - are there men who can not know the things of God? Who are these men? It can't be the Corinthians - they do understand at least understand some spiritual things...

[Sean]

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The question is - are there men who can not know the things of God? Who are these men? It can't be the Corinthians - they do understand at least understand some spiritual things...

I'm not exactly sure of the point your making.

Paul, in the same context said that he couldn't speak to the Corinthians as spiritual but as caranal, as babes in Christ. It would seem that carnal, or "mere men" as he also says can recieve the "milk" just not the wisdom that is revealed by the Spirit. Which makes one wonder: If the ability to believe gospel is something that must be revealed by the Spirit then how did the Corinthians believe?

[seer]

I'm not exactly sure of the point your making.

Paul, in the same context said that he couldn't speak to the Corinthians as spiritual but as caranal, as babes in Christ. It would seem that carnal, or "mere men" as he also says can recieve the "milk" just not the wisdom that is revealed by the Spirit. Which makes one wonder: If the ability to believe gospel is something that must be revealed by the Spirit then how did the Corinthians believe?

Sean, I think we both agree that the Corinthians did receive a spiritual truth again: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The teaching of the death of Christ was a "spiritual thing." The received it, they were babes in Christ.They had the Spirit of Christ. So "and he cannot understand them."Who is this class of men that can not understand these spiritual things?

[Sean]

The teaching of the death of Christ was a "spiritual thing."

I'm not sure I agree. At least, not in this context. If it were, the Corinthians would not have accepted it, since they were not able to receive spiritual things (1 Cor 3:2). That's the reason Paul gives for feeding them only milk (1 Cor 3:2) they were not able to receive the spiritual truths Paul is referring to. The Spiritual things Paul has in mind in this context apparently exclude "milk".

The received it, they were babes in Christ.They had the Spirit of Christ. So "and he cannot understand them."Who is this class of men that can not understand these spiritual things?

The class of men who cannot understand the spiritual things Paul is discussing here are:
1. Those without the Spirit.
2. Those who have the Spirit but are too worldly, those who are "babes in Christ".

These spiritual things are said to be for the mature:
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified...
1Co 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory

[seer]

I'm not sure I agree. At least, not in this context. If it were, the Corinthians would not have accepted it, since they were not able to receive spiritual things (1 Cor 3:2). That's the reason Paul gives for feeding them only milk (1 Cor 3:2) they were not able to receive the spiritual truths Paul is referring to. The Spiritual things Paul has in mind in this context apparently exclude "milk".

seer wrote:
The received it, they were babes in Christ.They had the Spirit of Christ. So "and he cannot understand them."Who is this class of men that can not understand these spiritual things?

The class of men who cannot understand the spiritual things Paul is discussing here are:
1. Those without the Spirit.
2. Those who have the Spirit but are too worldly, those who are "babes in Christ".

These spiritual things are said to be for the mature:
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified...
1Co 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory

Sean, we (christians) all have a dual nature. That is all that Paul is pointing out - that the Corinthians are letting that carnal nature get the better of them. Remember the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Embracing the sacrifical death of Christ is certainly a spiritual truth/thing. And that they did.

So we still have a class of men that can not accept spiritual things...

I guess when it comes down to it Arminians want to get some glory for themselves...

[Sean]

Sean, we (christians) all have a dual nature. That is all that Paul is pointing out - that the Corinthians are letting that carnal nature get the better of them. Remember the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Embracing the sacrifical death of Christ is certainly a spiritual truth/thing. And that they did.

Yes, Christians have a war between the Spirit and the flesh, but that's not what Paul is talking about. Nor is that what Paul said here. Paul said:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able

Following the flow of thought from chapter 2 into chapter 3, Paul states that he gave the Corinthians milk (Christ and Him crucified) but not solid food (wisdom for the mature that comes from the Spirit). Then in chapter 3 Paul says the reason he only gave them milk was because they were not able to receive the wisdom that comes from the Spirit of God, yes the "deep things" of God. Not only that but "even now you are still not able". So they were this way when Paul gave them "milk" and they are still this way so they are still only getting "milk".

What I want the Reformed to do is answer how it is that those who cannot accept spiritual truths revealed by the Spirit could accept "Christ and Him crucified".

If regeneration (in the reformed sense of the word) is so powerful that rebellious man can't help but believe after this revelation occurs, then why is the same Spirit of God unable to reveal these "deep things" to the Corinthians until they first change their act?

It seems that "milk" (Christ and Him crucified) and "solid food"(Spiritual truths revealed by the Spirit) are not on the same level as each other.

So we still have a class of men that can not accept spiritual things...

I guess when it comes down to it Arminians want to get some glory for themselves...

God promised I would share in His glory. Since God then is the first cause, that means I only want Glory because He wanted me to have it first.

[seer]

Sean, we (christians) all have a dual nature. That is all that Paul is pointing out - that the Corinthians are letting that carnal nature get the better of them. Remember the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Embracing the sacrifical death of Christ is certainly a spiritual truth/thing. And that they did.

Yes, Christians have a war between the Spirit and the flesh, but that's not what Paul is talking about. Nor is that what Paul said here. Paul said:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able

Following the flow of thought from chapter 2 into chapter 3, Paul states that he gave the Corinthians milk (Christ and Him crucified) but not solid food (wisdom for the mature that comes from the Spirit). Then in chapter 3 Paul says the reason he only gave them milk was because they were not able to receive the wisdom that comes from the Spirit of God, yes the "deep things" of God. Not only that but "even now you are still not able". So they were this way when Paul gave them "milk" and they are still this way so they are still only getting "milk".

What I want the Reformed to do is answer how it is that those who cannot accept spiritual truths revealed by the Spirit could accept "Christ and Him crucified".

If regeneration (in the reformed sense of the word) is so powerful that rebellious man can't help but believe after this revelation occurs, then why is the same Spirit of God unable to reveal these "deep things" to the Corinthians until they first change their act?

It seems that "milk" (Christ and Him crucified) and "solid food"(Spiritual truths revealed by the Spirit) are not on the same level as each other.

seer wrote:
So we still have a class of men that can not accept spiritual things...

I guess when it comes down to it Arminians want to get some glory for themselves...

God promised I would share in His glory. Since God then is the first cause, that means I only want Glory because He wanted me to have it first.

1. Sean, I think for this to work for you would have to deny that "Christ and Him crucified" is a spiritual truth. At least not one of importance. I don't know if there are many spiritual truths that are more important - do you?

2. These are regenerated believers. That is why they at least can accept this basic spiritual truth.

3. I don't know of any reformed teacher who says that our spiritual maturity comes over night. It's a process.

4. I have no problem if God wants to glorify me - but I will not glory in my flesh. I will not take credit for any of it. Feel free to do otherwise...

[Sean]

1. Sean, I think for this to work for you would have to deny that "Christ and Him crucified" is a spiritual truth. At least not one of importance. I don't know if there are many spiritual truths that are more important - do you?

2. These are regenerated believers. That is why they at least can accept this basic spiritual truth.

3. I don't know of any reformed teacher who says that our spiritual maturity comes over night. It's a process.

4. I have no problem if God wants to glorify me - but I will not glory in my flesh. I will not take credit for any of it. Feel free to do otherwise...

1. Apparently Paul knew of them (more important spiritual truths), and couldn't share them with the Corinthians. You are assuming "Christ and Him crucified" is something man cannot accept prior to regeneration. You must prove this assertion. You must also show how my point is wrong in it's context, and not just wrong according to reformed presuppositions.

2. I believe they are regenerated as well, yet they cannot accept things (deep things) reviled by the Spirit of God, interesting truth to ponder.

3. So Paul should have just been patient with them? "Lay off 'em Paul, don't you know, it's a process".
You've not responded to the contextual points I made in my last post. You have to show how people who can not receive Spiritual truths could receive "Christ and Him crucified" if it is indeed a spiritual truth.

4. Arminians don't glory in their flesh, but Calvinist authors unfortunately misrepresent the Arminian position by saying so. The truth is, the Arminian (so called) hears the gospel, is convicted by the Spirit and when he believes it is then regenerated by faith. Believing in God is not taking credit for ones salvation (as the Calvinist falsely accuses). For the bible says otherwise about faith:

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

and

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness...16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace

It's unfortunate that you have been misinformed about the "Arminian" position. Faith is not something that can be boasted about or counted as a debt that is owed.

[seer]

Hey Sean,

I think we both made our points on the Corinthians passage, so I'll let that part go for now. But if faith is something you gin up for yourself then you do have room for boasting. If it is a gift from God, then all boasting is removed. But hey I understand, it's part of the noetic effects of sin. We want to hold something for ourselves. To grab some glory for ourselves. We want to take at least a little credit. We want to say "I" not God, caused this turn of events... And as long as a man glories in his flesh (even a little) he will always interpret passages to confirm that view.

[darinhouston]

Hey Sean,

I think we both made our points on the Corinthians passage, so I'll let that part go for now. But if faith is something you gin up for yourself then you do have room for boasting. If it is a gift from God, then all boasting is removed. But hey I understand, it's part of the noetic effects of sin. We want to hold something for ourselves. To grab some glory for ourselves. We want to take at least a little credit. We want to say "I" not God, caused this turn of events... And as long as a man glories in his flesh (even a little) he will always interpret passages to confirm that view.

I honestly don't understand why folks can't seem to understand the position of the Arminian on this point -- if Scripture says there's nothing to boast about in being saved, and I confess that truth, then I think the burden of persuasion is on you to explain how my position is inconsistent with my confession. First, it is "salvation" (as the result of faith) that scripture suggests is not to be boasted about -- second, I don't even boast in the decision that leads to salvation (and the gift of faith). Steve's suggestion of receiving a normal tangible gift is perfect, I think, and no one has refuted it's application in my mind. A simple decision to walk through a door or to extend a hand to receive a gift suggests nothing in the recipient to suggest that he has ANYTHING to boast about or in fact is so boasting after he receives the gift. If the term of receiving the gift and the empowerment (yes, we believe it is God that equips us even to decide to want the gift) are provided to everyone (in different measure, no doubt), then there's nothing to boast about even when we exercise our will that God freely gave us. Even our independent will in this regard is a provision of the Father, so I have nothing to boast about even in that, but that does NOT negate the fact that it is my own responsibility and ability (again, given to me by God but not uniquely) to follow Him. I take breaths every day to sustain my life -- I decide to eat to stay alive -- none of that is without the sustaining power of God, but if I decided to quit eating, I would die. God doesn't force me to live. If I decide to step out in front of a train, I would surely die -- if God has a divine need for me to live for a purpose, He has sufficient power to put impediments in my path or even miraculously keep me from death even if hit by the train, but there is a point where He will give us over to our wills even against His own in which case He is powerful enough to use someone or something else to fulfill His greater plan. To suggest He lacks this power and NEEDS everything to work out just so or His divine will would be thwarted for His kingdom is to deprive God of a power I believe He has shown He has (and its the Calvinist who's position necessitates either this inferior view of God or a tyrannical and meticulous control).

Putting salvation aside for the moment -- God also withholds Spiritual growth and deepening of Faith until we step out in Faith and choose to spend time with Him and follow Him further. Do you agree? If so, and we do decide to turn to Him in times of struggle (or peace) and our Faith grows (as a gift of God), would it be fair for me to suggest you boast in your Spiritual growth?