1 Corinthians 2:14

[seer]

Hello Darin,

That's what I mean. Your whole post is "I" "I" and "I" - you are making my point, it's all about you. Personally, I give all credit to God - for my growth in grace as well as my initial salvation. As Luther said - all my sin is mine and all my righteousness is His...

I mean, in the end, what is the difference between you and your neighbor who dies unblessed? Who made the difference - you or God? And if you did then it was by your will - and that is an occasion for boasting. In the end YOU DID IT...

[darinhouston]

Hello Darin,

That's what I mean. Your whole post is "I" "I" and "I" - you are making my point, it's all about you. Personally, I give all credit to God - for my growth in grace as well as my initial salvation. As Luther said - all my sin is mine and all my righteousness is His...

I mean, in the end, what is the difference between you and your neighbor who dies unblessed? Who made the difference - you or God? And if you did then it was by your will - and that is an occasion for boasting. In the end YOU DID IT...

I (yes, I) give up... Again, you haven't explained how I have occasion to boast in making a simple decision. The bible says a lot about "me" and my responsibilities and freedoms -- and it does so without suggesting I have anything to boast in (and in fact declaring otherwise). How is it that you insist otherwise?

[Sean]

Hey Sean,
But if faith is something you gin up for yourself then you do have room for boasting.

Show me where it states this in scripture please. Luther doesn't count.

If it is a gift from God, then all boasting is removed.

It is a gift from God. It comes by hearing and is a genuine trust in Christ as Lord because you know can't save yourself! Trusting in Christ alone is not something you can boast about. I mean, what would I say? "Look how great I am for being so helpless that I must trust in another because I can't save myself". I'm not sure I follow the logic.

But hey I understand, it's part of the noetic effects of sin. We want to hold something for ourselves. To grab some glory for ourselves. We want to take at least a little credit. We want to say "I" not God, caused this turn of events... And as long as a man glories in his flesh (even a little) he will always interpret passages to confirm that view.

But this is not faith. Abraham believed God. If I believe God, I have held nothing out to God nor have I tried to "grab some glory". Would you say you are trying to "grab some glory" when you "give all credit to God"? I don't think so.

Seer,
Do you honestly believe "Arminians" are like this?

Personally, I give all credit to God - for my growth in grace as well as my initial salvation.

So do I. It is you telling me that I don't that has me puzzled. Faith is not meritorious.

I mean, in the end, what is the difference between you and your neighbor who dies unblessed?

Well Jesus tells us in a parable that He (thankfully) explains:

Mark 4:14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

Who does Jesus say makes the choice? I mean, what's the difference between them? It's the people and how they all react to the same gospel. The difference was in the soil (people) not the gospel (it was the same in all these cases). This question is answered in other places as well. I just gave one example.

[darinhouston]

I mean, in the end, what is the difference between you and your neighbor who dies unblessed?

By the way, maybe this gets at the root of the disagreement between us -- you assume the neighbor who dies (presumably unsaved) was not blessed. I do not concede this point -- I believe that we are all blessed by God's withholding of His judgment against us by keeping us alive long enough to have the chance to decide whether to follow Him or not. I believe all are blessed by His revelation (both general and particular) and of the Gospel. I believe all are blessed by health and sustenance. I believe all are blessed by challenges that goad us towards decisions we either kick against or submit to. I believe all are blessed by the love of the brethren, the model of the Church, the teachings of Christ, the sun that rises, the breaths we take. If we, like prodigals, take that blessing for granted, grab what we can get from it and go our own way, God will let us. If we realize the muck and stain we are in without Christ as our master, then He waits with open arms to receive our broken will and exchange it with the power of the Holy Spirit and all the manifold spiritual blessings He was waiting to give us.

There is nothing in Scripture to indicate any of us are without this opportunity -- all we have to do is recognize our desparation and humbly submit. If there's something to boast in, it's a derived pride of the power of the Holy Spirit, the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus, and the love, patience, and forebearance of our merciful Father.

Isn't it the Calvinist who believes they are "special" in God's eyes as against their brothers who weren't "chosen?" Me thinks they doth protest too much.

[seer]

Who does Jesus say makes the choice? I mean, what's the difference between them? It's the people and how they all react to the same gospel. The difference was in the soil (people) not the gospel (it was the same in all these cases). This question is answered in other places as well. I just gave one example.

So you made the good soil in yourself? It's all about you again...

[seer]

By the way, maybe this gets at the root of the disagreement between us -- you assume the neighbor who dies (presumably unsaved) was not blessed. I do not concede this point -- I believe that we are all blessed by God's withholding of His judgment against us by keeping us alive long enough to have the chance to decide whether to follow Him or not. I believe all are blessed by His revelation (both general and particular) and of the Gospel. I believe all are blessed by health and sustenance. I believe all are blessed by challenges that goad us towards decisions we either kick against or submit to. I believe all are blessed by the love of the brethren, the model of the Church, the teachings of Christ, the sun that rises, the breaths we take. If we, like prodigals, take that blessing for granted, grab what we can get from it and go our own way, God will let us. If we realize the muck and stain we are in without Christ as our master, then He waits with open arms to receive our broken will and exchange it with the power of the Holy Spirit and all the manifold spiritual blessings He was waiting to give us.

There is nothing in Scripture to indicate any of us are without this opportunity -- all we have to do is recognize our desparation and humbly submit. If there's something to boast in, it's a derived pride of the power of the Holy Spirit, the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus, and the love, patience, and forebearance of our merciful Father.

Isn't it the Calvinist who believes they are "special" in God's eyes as against their brothers who weren't "chosen?" Me thinks they doth protest too much.

Well tell me Darin - why did you submit to God while your lost neighbor didn't? Are you better? Smarter? Wiser? In any case it all comes back to YOU.

Like I said, it is quite natural for us to want to glory our flesh... I understand, it's ok...

[Sean]

Who does Jesus say makes the choice? I mean, what's the difference between them? It's the people and how they all react to the same gospel. The difference was in the soil (people) not the gospel (it was the same in all these cases). This question is answered in other places as well. I just gave one example.

So you made the good soil in yourself? It's all about you again...

I soiled myself.

Did you even try to read/exegete the passage I quoted? You say it's all about "me" but you are the one banging loudly with no biblical support presented. If you are trying to correct our error, wouldn't it be best to show us the error of our way with scripture instead of what you have been told?

Peace brother seer.

[seer]

Sean,

How we view these things, our assumptions if you will, will inform our interpretation of these passages. So my question for you and Darin is simple - why did you accept the gospel while your lost neighbor rejected it? I know may people who have heard a clear presentation of the gospel - yet reject it. Are you more humble? More wise? If so, how did you get that way?

[darinhouston]

Sean,

How we view these things, our assumptions if you will, will inform our interpretation of these passages. So my question for you and Darin is simple - why did you accept the gospel while your lost neighbor rejected it? I know may people who have heard a clear presentation of the gospel - yet reject it. Are you more humble? More wise? If so, how did you get that way?

More fortunate.

There is nothing more in my heart notwithstanding your seeming certitude as to my motivations. It is you that seem intent on ascribing some inherent value to me for having made such a decision, not I.

[darinhouston]

How we view these things, our assumptions if you will, will inform our interpretation of these passages.

By the way -- I agree -- your view seems to inform interpretation of passages in a way that ascribes a nature to God that is contrary to His nature as revealed by the entirety of Scripture (yet consistent with certain greek thoughts about God). My view seems to inform them in a way that ascribes a nature to man that is, in fact, seemingly in line with specific teachings of Scripture (yet contrary to some traditional thoughts about man).

If true (I acknowledge you will no doubt disagree), which would have the burden of proof? Which risks more in answer to God for His teaching? If true, that's a pretty risky proposition -- are you that "certain" in your own beliefs in this regard that you're willing to take that chance ?