The Narrow Path Ministries

Yep, just like the topic suggest.

I came across this article and found it fascinating. Read it with a grain of salt.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_pr ... 07973.html

Taken from a links within the article
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con ... /106/3/623

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obitua ... free_will/

What I particularly found fascinating was the terminology used by the scientist. One does not often come across scientific journals using the term free will!


Paul

So our brain waves indicate a choice which we didn't consciously make until 10 seconds later. That doesn't indicate that we didn't make a free will choice, only that we were not conscious of it until about 10 seconds later.

The article stated:

In a rudimentary way, they predetermine our choices.

"Predetermine our choices" is an oxymoron. If our ACTIONS are predetermined, then they are not choices. In my opinion, our choice was made, not when we became conscious of it, but at the moment the brain waves indicated it. If not, then what caused those particular brain waves? Were they random events? Or was there a chain of prior causes?

here is a similar article i remember reading a while back about our brain's ability to see into the future:

Anticipating the Future to See the Present

TK

Paidion wrote:
"Predetermine our choices" is an oxymoron. If our ACTIONS are predetermined, then they are not choices. In my opinion, our choice was made, not when we became conscious of it, but at the moment the brain waves indicated it. If not, then what caused those particular brain waves? Were they random events? Or was there a chain of prior causes?

Indeed!

Paul

Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?

So what is there anywhere, that can happen, or come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely No Cause?

Yet, this is what most of humanity believes in that we can think thoughts that we ourselves brought into existence without any Cause! Why should we assume such a thing? Well, for one thing, we are not usually, consciously aware of the cause. So, do we deceive ourselves into believing that our thoughts had no cause?

But since when must the cause of an effect be visible or perceivable in order to be accepted? I can witness the tremendous effects and power of electricity, and yet I have never seen electricity. I can see the effects and power of the wind, and yet I have never seen the wind.

So why then should it seem strange to us that we can have thoughts without seeing, feeling, or hearing the CAUSE of those thoughts? It is amazing just how accepting the doctrine of free will is when we consider that most scientists accept free will as a fact, yet would never in a million years accept anything else in the universe as coming into existence without a cause!

Psychiatrists and psychologists look for every conceivable cause of mental diseases, personality disorders, and a plethora of behavioral dysfunctions associated with the thinking of the mentally challenged. So try to convince even one of them that these disorders have absolutely no cause whatsoever, and see how they will look at you with a cocked head. Then suggest to these same experts if indeed all of these malfunctioning thought patterns do have a cause, then just maybe all of our properly functioning and socially acceptable thoughts, also have causes. And they will again look at you with a cocked head of incredulity! Does anyone see a contradiction in all this free will possibility?

Yes, indeed, we do have a will, but is it free from the “cause” and “effect” of God’s will and universe? That is the real issue.


Paul

Pierac wrote:Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?

Of course it could not be otherwise, by the very definition of the words! An "effect" is that which results from a "cause". The statement is true, yes, but trivially true.

So what is there anywhere, that can happen, or come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely No Cause?

Nothing. But saying an effect must have a cause is a totally different matter from sayng that an event must have a cause. How do we know that every event has a cause? Having said that, I must declare my belief that every event does indeed have a cause, but we ourselves are the primary cause of decisions which we make. There may be other influences on those decisions, but they are insufficient to cause them. Even very strong influences are insufficient. A criminal may point a gun at you and order you to give him your money ---- and you probably will in order to preserve your life. Yet the criminal's action didn't cause you to give him your money. You could have chosen to refuse --- and many people have done exactly that in such circumstances.

As to your ice-cream cone example, it may be that the memory of the incident 35 years ago was caused by the sight of the ice-cream cone advertisment. However, a memory arising, is quite different from making a conscious choice.

Various parts and conditions in my body cause my heart to beat. I don't consciously choose to make my heart beat. But that is quite a different matter than my conscious choice to raise my hand. I do not affirm that the latter action was without cause. I, myself, my own conscious self, was the cause.

Oh, ain't free will fun!!!

paidion wrote:

I don't consciously choose to make my heart beat.

hey-- you're right! I can finally relax!

Paidion wrote: Oh, ain't free will fun!!!

Indeed, I see truth on both sides of the argument. The question is how free is free.


I just love this verse....

CLV Ecc 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus.

Will we ever know?


Paul

CLV Ecc 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus.

"Obscurity"? Unusual translation, Pierac. He actually wrote that He has put "the age" in their heart, so that man may not find out His work. Our "age" refers to our life span. In other words, our life span is very limited, and so we can't find out much about what God does throughout countless ages, from the Beginning to the End. Yes, that's humbling all right! Thank you for sharing that passage, Pierac.

I do agree that we are not "free" in many ways. Jesus said that he who practises sin is a SLAVE of sin. Yet, even a slave has free will and can refuse to obey his master. He may be whipped for doing so, but he can still make that choice.

I have known people who were slaves to alcohol, who nevertheless made the decision not to to co-operate with their pressing urge to drink. By being unco-operative long enough, some of them actually broke free.

I know it's much easier to be set free by the enabling grace of God. "Whom the Son has set free is TRULY free". Yet there seems to be a few people who have broken free through their own choices.