Get yourself a new heart?

Jim
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Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Jim » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:05 pm

I have been trying to get someone to explain to me this verse in light of the theory of total depravity?

Ezekiel 18: 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

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Paidion
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:54 am

And while you're at it, please explain how a totally depraved people could carry out the following commands:

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. Isaiah 1:16,17
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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seer
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by seer » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:34 pm

Paidion wrote:And while you're at it, please explain how a totally depraved people could carry out the following commands:

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. Isaiah 1:16,17
Are you suggesting Paidion that you made yourself clean in the sight of God?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:11 pm

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm asking for believers in total depravity to explain God's command to the Israelites to do the following, if they, the Israelites were totally depraved and thus incapable of doing anything good.

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. Isaiah 1:16,17
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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seer
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by seer » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:22 am

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm asking for believers in total depravity to explain God's command to the Israelites to do the following, if they, the Israelites were totally depraved and thus incapable of doing anything good.

No you can't get way that easy. Either you believe that a man can can make himself clean in the sight of God, rid himself of sin, or not. Which one is it Paidion?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:21 pm

Seer you wrote:No you can't get way that easy. Either you believe that a man can can make himself clean in the sight of God, rid himself of sin, or not. Which one is it Paidion?
So, if that's what you wanted to ask, why not ask it directly to begin with? Why ask if I was suggesting something? My answer to that question is the same. I was suggesting nothing!

In answer to your present question (now that you've got to the point), the answer is "Yes, through the grace of God". That's what salvation is all about. That is why Christ died "that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." I Peter 2:24.

Paul, too, answers your question in the same way I have, but in greater detail:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of ourSavior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with total command. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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seer
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by seer » Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:42 pm

In answer to your present question (now that you've got to the point), the answer is "Yes, through the grace of God". That's what salvation is all about. That is why Christ died "that we might die to sin and live to righteousness."

So if it by the grace of God, then that does not undermine the doctrine of total depravity.

Summary of the doctrine

The doctrine of total inability/depravity teaches that people are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, as he requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:17 pm

The doctrine of "total depravity" goes farther than you have indicated, Seer.

According to Wikipedia (underling mine):

Summary of the doctrine

Total depravity is the fallen state of man as a result of Original Sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will. Therefore, in Reformed Theology, God must predestine individuals into salvation since man is incapable of choosing God.



I do not agree that man is "incapable of choosing God." God's grace is necessary in order to do good, but we by choice must co-operate with the grace of God. If no one chooses to submit to God, then no one is being saved from sin, for God does not sovereignly force salvation upon us.

"Unless you forsake all and follow me, you cannot be My disciple." This statement of Christ presupposes that it is possible to forsake all and follow Him, as does the following:

"Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise.

It is not the case that man's generosity and altruism are necessarily "egoist acts in disguise."
Many people outside of Christ choose to give their lives to save others. How could that be an "egoist act in disguise"? One is not preserving himself or serving his self-interests in any way if he gives his own life for the sake of others.

John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.


With Christ and His apostles, the ability to choose is assumed.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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seer
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by seer » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:04 pm

<b>I do not agree that man is "incapable of choosing God." God's grace is necessary in order to do good, but we by choice must co-operate with the grace of God. If no one chooses to submit to God, then no one is being saved from sin, for God does not sovereignly force salvation upon us.</b>

You are missing the point. Can a man, in his natural state, choose to love and obey God? Without God doing a prior work, drawing the man?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: Get yourself a new heart?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:36 am

You are missing the point.
Which point am I missing?
Can a man, in his natural state, choose to love and obey God? Without God doing a prior work, drawing the man?
A man in his natural state can chooseto do so, and in making that choice steps through the door of salvation from sin. However, he cannot consistently carry out this choice apart from the grace of God. The only way he can appropriate that enabling grace is through co-operation with God, through faith.

I am not saying that God did not do the "prior work" of drawing him. Christ said, "If I be lifted up (on the cross) I will draw ALL people to me." So no one is going to miss out on the drawing.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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