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Not your own doing. It is the gift of God.

Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:43 am
by _Jude
Ephes. 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your
own doing; it is the gift of God.

The question has been raised about the free gift of God which is not of our
own doing. Some Arminians make a distinction in Ephesians 2:8 between
“salvation” and “faith”. Salvation it is said, is by grace, and is the gift of
God, and is not of our own doing. While faith is not the gift of God in view. This however, is not so far from the view of John Calvin himself. He says,
“Many persons restrict the ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.” (commentary p.228)

However Philippians 1:29 is sufficient for us to believe that faith is given to
us, to believe. Philip. 1:29 (ESV) “For it has been granted to you that for
the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his
sake.”

Some make this distinction between “salvation” and “faith” on a
grammatical basis. Since the Greek words for “grace” and “faith” are both
feminine, and the word for “that” (or “this” ESV), “touto” is neuter, it is
thought that the antecedent can neither be “grace” nor “faith.” But Greek
grammar in itself does not demand this distinction. It is correct for a neuter
(as “touto”) to refer to a feminine (such as “faith” / “pisteos”). However
there is nothing wrong with the “touto” (for “that”) referring to the complete
concept of salvation given by grace through faith.

In other words the whole sacred transaction is the gift of God; grace, faith and salvation. None of it is by any works. None of it is to the praise of anything in man, his free will included.

Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 6:18 am
by _james
In other words the whole deal is the gift of God; grace, faith and salvation. None of it is by any works. None of it is to the praise of anything in man, his free will included.

I believe that the ability to repent , believe and be obedient are all gifts of God. "All good gifts come down from above." But we must not resist the Holy Spirit who imparts these gifts. And the man must exercise said gifts.

I mean why did Christ praise the Centurion?

Mattherw 8:18

"When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."

Or why did Christ chide the disciples for "little faith" or chide the Jewish leaders for "no" faith? Such rebuking would be unnecessary, even silly, if God did it all.

Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:58 am
by _Anonymous
>> I believe that the ability to repent , believe and be obedient are all gifts of God. "All good gifts come down from above."

But does not the scripture say that it is faith itself that is the give of God, not the ability to have faith?

If so, then one either has faith, or one does not.

>> But we must not resist the Holy Spirit who imparts these gifts. And the man must exercise said gifts.

Yes, very true. Reformed theology says that God gives the faith to the man, and then demands that the man exercise his faith. Calvin says that it is inevitable that man will exercise that faith, because God has changed his heart. Others say that the man might or might not exercise the faith that God has given to him.

Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 5:34 am
by _Anonymous
But does not the scripture say that it is faith itself that is the give of God, not the ability to have faith?

What is faith but the ability to believe?


>> But we must not resist the Holy Spirit who imparts these gifts. And the man must exercise said gifts.

Yes, very true. Reformed theology says that God gives the faith to the man, and then demands that the man exercise his faith. Calvin says that it is inevitable that man will exercise that faith, because God has changed his heart. Others say that the man might or might not exercise the faith that God has given to him.



That is where we disagree. I do not believe that it is inevitable that man will exercise said faith or ability. Everytime you sin you fail to exercise faith.

Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 5:42 am
by _Anonymous
BTW De, that was me James, posting under guest. It seems I can't remember my password...

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 1:06 am
by _Iwavvnv644
James wrote:But does not the scripture say that it is faith itself that is the give of God, not the ability to have faith?

What is faith but the ability to believe?


>> But we must not resist the Holy Spirit who imparts these gifts. And the man must exercise said gifts.

Yes, very true. Reformed theology says that God gives the faith to the man, and then demands that the man exercise his faith. Calvin says that it is inevitable that man will exercise that faith, because God has changed his heart. Others say that the man might or might not exercise the faith that God has given to him.



That is where we disagree. I do not believe that it is inevitable that man will exercise said faith or ability. Everytime you sin you fail to exercise faith.
What is faith but the ability to believe....WELL, Faith isnt the ABILITY to believe. It is just believing (i.e. trust). So where does this BELIEVING come from? God.

James wrote:I believe that the ability to repent , believe and be obedient are all gifts of God. "All good gifts come down from above." But we must not resist the Holy Spirit who imparts these gifts. And the man must exercise said gifts.
If indeed God has given us (elect/chosen/saints/christians) gifts (esp. The Holy Spirit)...How can we resist it? If God gives we Have To Recieve it. For WHO CAN RESIST HIM?
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'"

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 5:20 am
by _james
What is faith but the ability to believe....WELL, Faith isnt the ABILITY to believe. It is just believing (i.e. trust). So where does this BELIEVING come from? God.

Of course faith is the ability to believe. It is illogical to suggest otherwise. But one must exercise this gift. Like I said - every time you sin you are failing to exercise said gift.

If indeed God has given us (elect/chosen/saints/christians) gifts (esp. The Holy Spirit)...How can we resist it? If God gives we Have To Recieve it. For WHO CAN RESIST HIM?

Sorry, God does not force men to love Him. And since when is a gift forced on a man?

Acts 7:51

You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Isaiah 5:4

"What more was there to do for my vineyard,(Israel)
that I have not done in it?
When I looked for it to yield grapes,
why did it yield wild grapes?"

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:39 am
by _Iwavvnv644
James wrote:Of course faith is the ability to believe. It is illogical to suggest otherwise. But one must exercise this gift. Like I said - every time you sin you are failing to exercise said gift.
Faith isnt an ability, it is BELIEVING in something we dont have full knowledge of (i.e. it is trust that something is true that cannot be proven as such). This isnt a matter of logic or not. It is definition.
faith n.

1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. often Faith Christianity.
4. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.

In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21).

But God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills. "He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!" (Daniel 4:35). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him.

This is what Paul taught in Romans 9:14-18, which caused his opponent to say, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" To which Paul answers: "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?" (Romans 9:20f).

The sovereign work of God overcomes the rebellion of our hearts (our resistingness) and brings us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.

Someone may say, "Yes, the Holy Spirit must draw us to God, but we can use our freedom to resist or accept that drawing." Our answer is: except for the continual exertion of saving grace, we will always use our freedom to resist God. That is what it means to be "unable to submit to God." If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because God has given that person a new, humble nature. If a person remains too hard hearted and proud to submit to God, it is because that person has not been given such a willing spirit. But to see this most persuasively we should look at the Scriptures.

In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This drawing is the sovereign work of grace without which no one can be saved from their rebellion against God. Again some say, "He draws all men, not just some." But this simply evades the clear implication of the context that the Father's "drawing" is why some believe and not others.

Specifically, John 6:64-65 says, "'But there are some of you that do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"

Notice two things.

First, notice that coming to Jesus is called a gift. It is not just an opportunity. Coming to Jesus is "given" to some and not to others.

Second, notice that the reason Jesus says this, is to explain why "there are some who do not believe." We could paraphrase it like this: Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe on him in spite of all the teaching and invitations he received. And because he knew this, he explains it with the words, No one comes to me unless it is given to him by my Father. Judas was not given to Jesus. There were many influences on his life for good. But the decisive, gift of grace (irresistible) was not given.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 says, "The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth."

Here, as in John 6:65 repentance is called a gift of God. Notice, he is not saying merely that salvation is a gift of God. He is saying that the prerequisites of salvation are also a gift. When a person hears a preacher call for repentance he can resist that call. But if God gives him repentance he cannot resist because the gift is the removal of resistance. Not being willing to repent is the same as resisting the Holy Spirit. So if God gives repentance it is the same as taking away the resistance. This is why we call this work of God "irresistible grace".

NOTE: It should be obvious from this that irresistible grace never implies that God forces us to believe against our will. That would even be a contradiction in terms. On the contrary, irresistible grace is compatible with preaching and witnessing that tries to persuade people to do what is reasonable and what will accord with their best interests.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 says, "We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jew and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Notice the two kinds of "calls" implied in this text.

First, the preaching of Paul goes out to all, both Jews and Greeks. This is the general call of the gospel. It offers salvation to all who will believe on the crucified Christ. But by and large it falls on unreceptive ears and is called foolishness.

But then, secondly, Paul refers to another kind of call. He says that among those who hear there are some who are "called" in such a way that they no longer regard the cross as foolishness but as the wisdom and power of God. What else can this call be but the irresistible call of God out of darkness into the light of God? If ALL who are called in this sense regard the cross as the power of God, then something in the call must effect the faith. This is irresistible grace.

It is further explained in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6, "The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God...It is the God who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Since men are blinded to the worth of Christ, a miracle is needed in order for them to come to see and believe. Paul compares this miracle with the first day of creation when God said, "Let there be light." It is in fact a new creation, or a new birth. This is what is meant by the effectual call in 1 Corinthians 1:24.

Those who are called have their eyes opened by the sovereign creative power of God so that they no longer see the cross as foolishness but as the power and the wisdom of God. The effectual call is the miracle of having our blindness removed. This is irresistible grace.

Another example of it is in Acts 16:14, where Lydia is listening to the preaching of Paul. Luke says, "The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul." Unless God opens our hearts, we will not heed the message of the gospel. This heart-opening is what we mean by irresistible grace.

Another way to describe it is "new birth" or being born again. We believe that new birth is a miraculous creation of God that enables a formerly "dead" person to receive Christ and so be saved. We do not think that faith precedes and causes new birth. Faith is the evidence that God has begotten us anew. "Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1).

When John says that God gives the right to become the children of God to all who receive Christ (John 1:12), he goes on to say that those who do receive Christ "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." In other words, it is necessary to receive Christ in order to become a child of God, but the birth that brings one into the family of God is not possible by the will of man.

Man is dead in trespasses and sins. He cannot make himself new, or create new life in himself. He must be born of God. Then, with the new nature of God, he immediately receives Christ. The two acts (regeneration and faith) are so closely connected that in experience we cannot distinguish them. God begets us anew and the first glimmer of life in the new-born child is faith. Thus new birth is the effect of irresistible grace, because it is an act of sovereign creation -- "not of the will of man but of God."

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 4:32 pm
by _james
Faith isnt an ability, it is BELIEVING in something we dont have full knowledge of (i.e. it is trust that something is true that cannot be proven as such). This isnt a matter of logic or not. It is definition.

Again, of course faith is the ability to believe. Look at it this way. You have the ability to believe and trust - correct? Yet every time you sin you fail to exercise this gift.

In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21).

Ok, you now agree that God can be resisted? Now before we get to your other proof texts let's discuss Israel and my proof texts:

Matthew 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Isaiah 5:4

"What more was there to do for my vineyard,(Israel)
that I have not done in it?
When I looked for it to yield grapes,
why did it yield wild grapes?"

When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, was He being truthful? And when He said that He did all He could to produce good fruit in Israel - was He being truthful?

Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 6:50 pm
by _Iwavvnv644
You have the ability to believe and trust - correct? Yet every time you sin you fail to exercise this gift.
YES i agree I have the ability to believe and trust in things! But that isnt faith, the ability to believe or trust in something isnt Faith. DOING SO (believing and trusting) is faith. NOT the ability to. DOING IT!
Ok, you now agree that God can be resisted? Now before we get to your other proof texts let's discuss Israel and my proof texts:


Dont just read the first paragraph and agree with me because that is what it seems, read the whole thing, especially including the paragraphs following what I SAID. Because it absolutely doesnt agree with ur view. Can God be resisted ABSOLUTELY NOT! (if taken in context).
When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, was He being truthful? And when He said that He did all He could to produce good fruit in Israel - was He being truthful?
Let me ask you this? DO you think God isnt powerful enough to have produced good fruit in Israel? If God wanted to ultimately "gather" Israel do think He could be powerful enough to make that happen? (i.e. Is God Omnipotent?)