Calvinism vs Arminianism re "Salvation"

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:17 pm

VIEWS OF SALVATION

Calvinist View

1. If you look for it, you can’t find it.
2. If you find it, you haven’t got it.
3. If you’ve got it, you can’t lose it.
4. If you lose it, you never had it.

Arminian View

1. If you look for it, you can find it.
2. If you find it, you’ve got it.
3. If you’ve got it, you can lose it.
4. If you lose it, you’ve had it.

Post by **__id_2674** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:20 am

nice to meet you paidon,
seems like a bit of a strawman no?

I believe calvinist would bach at this. I may be wrong but from their position they might argue...
1. If the elect look for it they will find it
1b. the reprobate will not look for it

2. if you find it you are elect
2b if you never find it you are reprobate

3. if you've got it you are elect
3b if you never got it you are reprobate

4. if you have it you will never lose it
4b if you lose it you never had it.

Most arminians know, for example, that calvinists do not hold that it is as simple as "no one can find it" except they be elect. So your omission of this is a bit misleading.

Calvinists do the same to arminians:
1) if you look for it and you found it then your not lost (God finds you)
2) if you find it you might not have it because it's still a choice
3) if you got it BUYER BEWARE for your worse off if you fall away
4) if you lose it there is no being saved again for it's impossible to bring them BACK to repentance (see the arm rendering of heb 6).

While I'm certainly no calvinist, I do not see arminians making great cases for their end either.

Aug

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:06 am

Greetings Aug,

Welcome to the forum!

My post wasn't meant to be analyzed or taken too seriously.

It was actually quoted to me by my 87-year-old brother who is a Calvinist and was a Baptist preacher for many years until he retired at about age 80.

By the way, you have an interesting spelling of "balk". I have never encountered that spelling before.

Post by **_Michelle** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:45 am

Paidion wrote: By the way, you have an interesting spelling of "balk". I have never encountered that spelling before.

I was amused for a few minutes imagining Calvinists composing fugues because of the statement.

Post by **__id_2674** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:43 am

johan sebastian bach is spelled with a balk : )
LOL sometime I dont even know why I SLEPP the way I do. After reading your reply I looked BACH and started laughing.

Hey thanks paidon for the welcome. So it was more of a comedy posting?
Sorry, for mistaking it. I see alot of posts of strawmen from both sides and can't understand why people do that.

My mistakes, but I am reading your post on OVT and find it interesting. I have to work my way through it. It's sort of a tough read.

Anyways yes fugues are not a very real part of the calvinists lifestyle.
Composition was calvinn forte and so I feel that calvinists do bach and roll at many things : )

Aug

Post by **_Michelle** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:03 am

Welcome, Auggy, I appreciate your sense of humor.

Post by **__id_2674** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:23 am

Thanks Michelle,
It's nice to meet you as well. I love finding this board as I really have loved Steves teaching MP3's.

I'm not an arminian but I do appreciate a CLEAR love for God in his teaching and I appreciate that whether he has perfect views on choice or not.

I guess saying I'm not arm. is a bit misleading. I am but I maintain monergism.

But thanks for the welcome too. Seems like people here really want to dialouge on a real level. I notice that people really push for logical reasons why a statement is made. I like that rather than just a "Bible says it so your going to hell fool!" type of posts.

I do like humour and find people who can laugh with each other have more in common and are able to hear each other on the serious notes.
I do have a VERY serious side and in the last 2 years have been digging deeper since becoming a Universal Reconciliationist. I am not 100% sure of the doctrine of UR but in my life it has made more sense to me than arm, calv or molinism.

My wife and I attend a small baptist church which just broke off the American Bap denomination and is not part of "transformation ministries".
I love it becaue my father in law is our sunday school teacher and this guys is as smart as the writers. Some stuff (like karl barth) I cant follow so he teaches em to me (sort of a mentor).

I've been a christain for about 18 years now and find myself sympathizing with everyone in some way or another.

so thanks for the welcome.

Aug

Post by **_Michelle** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:17 pm

auggybendoggy wrote:My wife and I attend a small baptist church which just broke off the American Bap denomination and is not part of "transformation ministries".

Are you guys going it on your own?

Post by **__id_2674** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:17 pm

sorry my post says is NOT part of and I meant IS NOW PART OF.
So no we're in TM with many others.

Their working hard to devolope the denomination. I know a few pastors who are involved because my father in law is the retired pastor of Chino First Baptist so he still gets involved in the whole mess. He councels like 10 pastors in the district and so they talk about what they would like to see and what they will push at the meetings.

so sorry again about the typo, I've got to learn to preview my posts and read them before just hitting submit. It's just so much easier just to submit : )

Aug

Post by **_Michelle** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:09 pm

Oh. heh.

The other way was going to be much more interesting. The church I grew up in is now in that Transformation Ministries. It was First Baptist Covina when I was growing up; now it's called Christ First Baptist Covina.