The Narrow Path Ministries

I've been exploring Open Theism in a discussion with someone. They claim that the unfulfilled Olivet Discourse on Christ's eminent return is proof that God's promises of future events are conditional and that He can change His mind. It is almost as if he says that since we didn't see a Futurist interpretation of events happen in a Preterist timetable that it is proof of Open Theism. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this idea.
D.

Right, and when Jesus asked his disciples "Could you not watch with me one hour?", that's proof that God didn't know the disciples would fall asleep.

Jerusalem fell according to Jesus' prediction, within that generation. Ask your friend what he does with that.

Seth wrote:Jerusalem fell according to Jesus' prediction, within that generation. Ask your friend what he does with that.

His point is that Jesus didn't return for the saints "in that generation". According to him, Romans 9 tells us why. I disagree, but with Steve's expertise in eschatology interpretations, I was wondering what the reaction to that idea would be. I've read Steve's book and listened to his course and it never crossed my mind that someone would interpret this passage as God intending to do one thing and changing His mind.
D.

They claim that the unfulfilled Olivet Discourse on Christ's eminent return is proof that God's promises of future events are conditional and that He can change His mind

I don't think that Christ's return is conditional because he is returning for the Church. Also I think that the calvinists can argue that the doctrine of election will work in this topic.

PAULESPINO wrote:I don't think that Christ's return is conditional because he is returning for the Church. Also I think that the calvinists can argue that the doctrine of election will work in this topic.

That was my point as well. If He can change His mind about coming back, why can't He change His mind about our forgiveness and such? While I wouldn't go as far as to say that Open Theism is heretical, I really don't like all the implications of it. When you start redefining God, it impacts everything.
D.

Djeaton wrote:

If He can change His mind about coming back, why can't He change His mind about our forgiveness and such? While I wouldn't go as far as to say that Open Theism is heretical, I really don't like all the implications of it. When you start redefining God, it impacts everything.

Neither of the Open Theist authors I have read, have ever suggested that God may change His mind about Christ's return. Nor did either of them ever "start redefining God".

Djeaton, have you ever read a book by an Open Theist author? From what you said, I would guess that the person with whom you spoke was not representive of Open Theism's position.

As I see it, Open Theism is almost synonymous with Relational Theism.
It depicts God truly interacting with man, rather than being aloof, unaffected by man's sorrows, choosing certain individuals for eternal life and condemning the rest to hell, even though they couldn't help make the choices they did.

The Open Theists which I have read show that God does change his intention when people repent and change their ways, as in the case of not having destroyed Ninevah, though He spoke through the prophet Jonah, warning that He would destroy it in 40 days.

John Sanders wrote that God took a great risk in creating man with a free will, even though man's freedom is limited.

As for foreknowledge, both authors which I have read believe in God's omniscience and omnipotence. However they don't believe that God can know the unknoweable, or do the undoäble. In other words contradictions are not objects of knowledge or power.

To say that God cannot create a stone so large that He cannot lift it, in no way implies that the speaker "limits God's omnipotence".

When I make the statement, "The sentence I am now uttering is false," I am in no way limiting God's omniscience when I say He cannot know whether or not I am lying. For the statement cannot be either true or false for obvious reasons. Likewise, when I say that the choices of free will agents cannot be known in advance (by God or anyone else) I am not limiting God's omnicience, since sentences about future choices are neither true not false.

Open Theism is not a system of theology. It is belief in God relating to man in a give and take fashion. Sometimes when a nation, or even an individual appeals to God, God will change His mind. Open Theists believe God is a truly caring person who listens to people. So prayer is not merely a useless exercise, or an exercise which benefits the supplicant only. Prayer does make a difference in the outcome of events.

Open Theists differ from each other in theology, as do Arminians and Calvinists.

Paidion wrote:Neither of the Open Theist authors I have read, have ever suggested that God may change His mind about Christ's return. Nor did either of them ever "start redefining God".

The point is that it is claimed that God changes His mind. In this example, one given me by an Open Theist, He changed His mind about coming back "in this generation" (according to him). I'm glad to hear that not all Open Theists would go that far. I don't see God "changing His mind" at all. Even in Nineveh, Jeremiah has prophesied long before that "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it". Whether Jonah mentioned that in his sermon to the town is unknown, but God's sparing them is not something that should come as a surprise.

Djeaton, have you ever read a book by an Open Theist author? From what you said, I would guess that the person with whom you spoke was not representative of Open Theism's position.

No. Since I became disabled in March of 2005, I have very poor concentration and reading comprehension. I get most of my learning now by discoursing with folks online or listening to audio sermons. I can take about 20-30 minutes of Steve's teaching at a time, for example, and often have to re-listen to some of it, but I have the time, willingness, and access, so I see myself better off than most. I'd love to find some good MP3 debates on Open Theism if anyone knows of a good source for them.

To me, my understanding of God's omniscience is based on my understanding of time. I don't see it as something that He (at least the Father) is bound by. I see it as a created thing which necessitates that the Creator be greater than it.
Daniel