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An example of total depravity's inconsistency

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:56 pm
by _SoaringEagle
Here is how a Calvinist must understand the salvation of the Philippian jailer: When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, he was obviously not yet under the influence of God’s irresistible grace, or else he would already have been regenerate and would have already received the sovereign gifts of faith and repentance. Thus he was still totally depraved, always using his freedom to resist God. (That being so, we must wonder why a totally depraved person is sincerely asking what he must do to be saved. If the Calvinist says it is because this totally depraved person is under conviction from God, it must be that God is bestowing “resistible grace” rather than “irresistible grace.” Yet the totally depraved sinner, according to Calvinism, will always use his freedom to resist God, so he would never sincerely seek to be saved. This jailer, however, was obviously sincerely seeking.)

By Steve Kirkwood

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:29 pm
by _Derek
Hey brother,
When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, he was obviously not yet under the influence of God’s irresistible grace, or else he would already have been regenerate and would have already received the sovereign gifts of faith and repentance.

Why is this obvious? Couldn't the jailer be asking what he must do because of God's grace? Because he is being "drawn"?

I don't think Calvinists think that a man, once regenerate, would not be convicted of his sin, which would prompt him to inquire how he can be saved. This could all be the human perspective of the calling/drawing of God.

God bless,

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:48 pm
by _SoaringEagle
Why is this obvious? Couldn't the jailer be asking what he must do because of God's grace? Because he is being "drawn"?


Yes, and yes. It is at these points that both the Arminian and Calvinist agree, but with different understandings of it.
I don't think Calvinists think that a man, once regenerate, would not be convicted of his sin, which would prompt him to inquire how he can be saved.


The thing about it, is that this man had not believed yet. No faith, no salvation. According to the calvinist, faith and repentance are the immediate fruits of God regenerating a sinner and giving him a new heart. The arminian can say that this person was under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and can respond to that and seek for the truth as the Spirit empowers him to do so. The arminian understanding is more consistent whereas the Calvinist view is problematic in relation to the jailer. Their understanding of irresistable grace is where God brings one out of darkness into the light, and makes one a new creation by regeration. This is what they call the Soveriegn grace and work of God. Thus, with the jailer, he wanted to know what he must do to be saved, (he was still totally depraved), and those two cannot co-exist, for they are mutually exclusive.
This could all be the human perspective of the calling/drawing of God.
Very much so. But I still see it as initially problematic (for the calvinist's consistency) at best.

God bless,

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:49 am
by _Ely
Or maybe they'd say that a person does not necessarily know that they have been regenerated. Actually, in Calvinism, this is a lifelong state for any believer, seeing it as perseverance to death (or rapture) is the only actual firm evidence of salvation offered by this system.