Regaining Salvation after Falling Away?

[Guest]

I do not hold to "once saved always saved." However, I am of the opinion that once a former believer turns from the faith, there is no chance that they can enter into a "saved" state again. Why? Because God's Spirit no longer draws the former believer, who has apostasized. He is essentially like the reprobate in Romans 1.

Hebrews 6 mentions that it is impossible to "renew to repentance" those who "have fallen away (Greek: Aorist Active Participle)."

Concerning the oft-repeated claim that the prodigal son regained his salvation after turning from his father, I think Tim Warner has it right that there is no indication that "dead", in the sense, supposes that the son "lost" his salvation:

"It is true that the son was not literally "dead." But it does not follow that he was "spiritually dead" (a non-biblical concept). The exclamation of the father, "this my son was dead and is alive again" was simply a metaphor, common in the middle east. In fact, it is still a common figure of speech. The Jews may consider a family member "dead" for a variety of reasons. The father was expressing his inner feelings about his son, not a theological truth. Remember, it is the fictional character in the parable who says these words, not Jesus Himself when interpreting the parable. Don't confuse the parable with the reality it is meant to portray."

http://p214.ezboard.com/fthechristianca ... ic&index=7

Are there any other arguments that one can lose his salvation and then regain it at another time?

Brian

[Guest]

Hi Brian,

Two scriptures immediately pop into my mind. There are very likely more but they escape me right now. Have you considered....

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
NKJV

and the whole book of Galatians seems to be written to a church that Paul considered "estranged from Christ"

Gal 5:4-5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

Yet he exhorts them as if there is still hope for them.

Gal 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
NKJV

He later talks about restoring those who have fallen to sin:

Gal 6:1
6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
NKJV

This seems to suggest that although Paul was worried about their falling from grace, that there is hope for them to repent and get right with God again.

Regarding Hebrews 6, I believe the author is saying that for man to convince a former believer to return to the faith is as much as impossible. But Jesus said:

Mark 10:27
"With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."
NKJV

I'm one that believes that an apostate can be renewed to God again. Although the likelihood is probably pretty small. I'm also one who believes that Peter is a good example of someone who did just that. He was sifted as wheat as Jesus predicted:

Luke 22:31-34
31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." 33 But he said to Him, "Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death." 34 Then He said, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me."
NKJV

Later, Jesus restored him (John 21:15-19)

Them's my thoughts anyways.

[Guest]

Christopher,

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think James 5:19-20 is a bulletproof text that once lost salvation can be regained.

First we should note that the verbs are in the subjunctive mood, which denotes probability or possibility, not definite reality.

"Brethren if any among you should be misled from the truth, and anyone should return him..." http://septuagint-interlinear-greek-bib ... /james.pdf

As a sidenote, it is interesting that "misled" is also in the passive tense (the subject is being acted upon). Thus it speaks of someone else, perhaps, attempting to mislead and draw a Christian away from the truth.

In any case to embrace the position that there is still hope for the former Christian (now an apostate) one must interpret "should be misled from the truth" as tantamount to "becoming an unbeliever." Cannot this phrase simply be conveying the possibility of a Christian falling into grievous error, which if unchecked could potentially lead him to death?

I'm going to examine Galatians 5:4 more closely. I will say now, however, that I have always found it odd that while the letter is addressed unequivocally to Christians (before and after the verse in question), one single verse is allegedly stated by Paul to prove that not only is apostasy possible, but that it is also redeemable!

I tend to think that it takes much more for someone to cease to be a Christian than some Wesleyan scholars and yourself declare. I don't believe that moments of weakness, temporary lapses into sin, etc., cause a Christian to forfeit his salvation. In many cases, the Bible presents that the once saved individual has no desire to return to God. It's not that God won't accept him back into His family; it's that the individual simply has no desire to return back to God. I think this is what characterizes the former believer.

Honestly, I think that some offshoots of Wesleyanism engenders condemnation in the heart of the Christian because it easy to be preoccupied whether a certain sin (or even string of sins) forfeits our salvation. I see little security in this.

I appreciate the dialogue.

Brian

[Guest]

hi brian--

do you think an "actual renunciation" of Jesus is required in order to lose one's salvation, once they are truly saved? this would be opposed to a "constructive reninciation," which would be exhibited by lifestyle, etc.

by the way, i agree with your view that it is not "easy" to lose one's salvation.

TK

[Guest]

I don't go for the OSAS belief myself. The question is, even if someone renounces Jesus after coming to faith, could there still a mustard seed size faith in them?

Jim

[Guest]

Hi Brian,

You wrote:

I tend to think that it takes much more for someone to cease to be a Christian than some Wesleyan scholars and yourself declare. I don't believe that moments of weakness, temporary lapses into sin, etc.

Just for the record, I do not declare that it’s “easy” to cease to be a Christian nor do I necessarily believe Wesleyans do either. I think the only way a Christian would forfeit his/her salvation is if he/she doesn’t care about their relationship with God.

I don’t view salvation as a thing to be obtained and lost, but rather a benefit to being in right relationship to God. When there is “moments of weakness, temporary lapses into sin, etc.” we shouldn’t be worrying about our salvation, but the damaged relationship we have with God by offending him.

I think sometimes Christians tend to view this salvation thing in the wrong way. It’s like a child that disobeys his parents and his primary concern is whether or not he’s going to still get the bicycle they promised him for Christmas. It’s “me” centered.

The relationship should be the primary concern. Am I right with God? Are we on good terms? Am I at total peace with Him? Is my King pleased with me? Is there any unsettled thing between us? These are some of the questions that come to my mind regarding my relationship with God. It’s not “Am I still going to heaven?”.

You wrote:

It's not that God won't accept him back into His family; it's that the individual simply has no desire to return back to God. I think this is what characterizes the former believer.

I agree with this statement. However, I wouldn’t necessarily apply it universally. I think there is a possibility for someone to not desire God one day, and then be made aware of their desperate need for God and turn around. After all, that’s the condition most of us were in before we became believers.

You wrote:

Honestly, I think that some offshoots of Wesleyanism engenders condemnation in the heart of the Christian because it easy to be preoccupied whether a certain sin (or even string of sins) forfeits our salvation. I see little security in this.

I have a great deal of security in my salvation. Not because I’m without sin, but because I never intend to forsake my relationship with God. Sin does grieve me. Not because I’m worried about my ticket to heaven, but because I’ve offended God and damaged our relationship. Thankfully, “His mercy endures forever”.

Lord bless brother.

[Guest]

well stated, christopher.

TK