The Narrow Path Ministries

Romans 3:10-12 is used as a proof text for the Calvinist point of total depravity, it says:

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

If this passage is talking about the natural state of man, without the working God on man's heart, then the Calvinist appears to have a valid argument for total depravity. Can someone please explain how the non-Calvinist understands the meaning/context of this passage?

Thanks,
Pete

thrombomodulin wrote:Romans 3:10-12 is used as a proof text for the Calvinist point of total depravity, it says:

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

If this passage is talking about the natural state of man, without the working God on man's heart, then the Calvinist appears to have a valid argument for total depravity. Can someone please explain how the non-Calvinist understands the meaning/context of this passage?

Thanks,
Pete

A non-Calvinist would say that this isn't an absolute statement but only a generalization, or perhaps hyperbole. Maybe pointing to the fact that the passage also say that men are "quick to shed blood" which would be in most peoples mind a generalization.

However, a Calvinist might say that men are quick to shed blood as well, but that God's "common grace" keeps them from being as "depraved" as they could be.

A non-Calvinist might also point out that the man who wrote the passage that Paul is quoting, David, was a God-seeker.

To this a Calvinist would say that the Psalms passage is speaking of the unregenerate to which the Arminian would say there was no OT regeneration etc...

I would say I don't know for sure who's right.

hey pete- nice pike, by the way. it reminds me of one of my favorite family photos- when i was really young we used to vacation in rice lake, wisconsin and we have a photo of a long table of northern pikes side by side like a bunch of logs-- fun times!

in regards to the text you mention, i am not an expert in the finer points of calvinism or non-calvinism, but i lean towards the non.

i would agree that in our natural state, the verse applies. but sometimes people hear the word of God, and the Spirit begins to work, and they are convicted, and lo and behold they begin to turn toward God. in other words total depravity holds true until conviction sets in.

total depravity, in my mind, is one of the least objectionable of the petals of the TULIP, probably because it can be remedied.

TK

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

A Calvinist used this on me once; I have since learned that the verbs seeks and does are present participles in the Greek which expresses continuous or repeated action and the statement does not preclude anyone from responding to the gospel. The Calvinists use the passage to support their claim that regeneration must precede faith; born again unbelievers, you know.

I have since learned that the verbs seeks and does are present participles in the Greek which expresses continuous or repeated action

Forgive my ignorance here, but what difference would this make?

Would that be rendered "no one is seeking God" and "no one is doing good"?

Why would this be any different than how a Calvinist would interpret it?

Derek,

The Calvinist asserts that this verse proves that an unregenerate person can do no good thing, such as accept the gospel and believe, not even momentarily. The passage does not say any such thing; it is in reference to an on-going practice, which the tense of the verbs indicate.

Romans 3:10-12

There are several passages of Scripture Calvinists employ to support Total Inability. One of the prominent proof-texts is Romans 3:10-12: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." The Calvinist's main emphasis is on the fact that "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." This is supposed to be speaking of a literal condition in which all human beings are born. They cannot so much as seek God or understand Him.

This poetic "outburst," a quote from the Psalms, has been beaten and shaped on the anvil of theology to give us a notion of Total Inability. But what is the point Paul is here making? Is he erecting the doctrine of human nature and its relation to soteriology? Not at all. His point is clearly set forth in verse 9: Jews and Gentiles alike are "under sin." Sin is not peculiar to lowly Gentiles, but also afflicts the favored Jews. He proves his point by quoting Psalm 14, which at the outset tells the readers it is dealing with "the fool."

As a poet, the Psalmist frequently bursts into hyperbole, especially when hot with righteous indignation. David is teaching the sinfulness of men, but he does so in an extravagant Hebrew idiom to get the point across powerfully. This is a common poetic device. In verse 4, he says evildoers "devour my people as men eat bread." That, of course, is not literal. David is not laying down a metaphysical doctrine that all men enter this world with a propensity for cannibalism.

This is poetic exaggeration, a common figure of speech not to be read with a slavish literalism. Other Scriptures tell us there are righteous men who do good (contrary to a literal reading of Rom. 3:10). Job is a perfect example: "This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil" (Job 1:1). The Bible also tells us of men who sought after God and found Him. In 2 Chronicles 11:16, we read: "Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their fathers."

This is fulfillment of the oft-stated promise that "the Lord is good to those who hope in him, to the one who seeks him" (Lam. 3:25). The theme runs through the Bible without the disclaimer that such "seeking" is impossible without an inner miracle.

By Steve Jones

Homer I think I understand you, but could you read this paragraph and tell me if I've got it correct:

There might be two ways of seeking God and doing good; either as a continuous, repeated action (like believers are supposed to under the power of the Holy Spirit,) or as an intermittent action, here-and-there, now-and-then. This verse is saying that the unregenerate person does not do the former, but says nothing about the latter, therefore an unregenerate could seek and find God during one of those intermittent moments.

BUT.....

What if the verse and it's grammar means that the on-going action is that of not seeking God? What if it means that every moment the unregenerate is not seeking God and there never is a moment when he gives even the smallest thought about seeking God? Wouldn't that be exactly what Calvinist are saying?

I guess I'm wondering how, by the grammar, we know if the on-going, repeated, continuous action is seeking God or not seeking God?

edited to add:

SoaringEagle:
Sorry...I didn't mean to ignore your post, I just didn't see it. I think you were posting while I was still checking the spelling on my post. I like what you posted there. Are you Steve Jones, or are you just quoting him?

Just quoting him.

<b>Michelle said:</b>

What if the verse and it's grammar means that the on-going action is that of not seeking God? What if it means that every moment the unregenerate is not seeking God and there never is a moment when he give even the smallest thought about seeking God? Wouldn't that be exactly what Calvinist are saying?

Hi Homer,

This is also what I am wondering, and why I am not quite "getting" what you are saying.

Sorry, I guess I'm being dense here.