That is the dilemma. Since God is said (by some) to know perfectly today what someone will do tomorrow, then that person's tomorrow is "locked in." How could it be otherwise
As far as the person goes he thinks he has a free will therefore although God may know his future choice , this person can still be responsible for his choices because God did'nt coerce these choices.
If God knows the future then i agree we don't have a true free will but since we don't have any ability to foreknow the future , God can rightly judge us as though we have free will.
Knowing the future is God's business, our business is what we do with the light we have available to us.
Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
hi steve7150-- you wrote:
Did you ever see "The Matrix?"
TK
I agree that God can do whatever He wants; however I don't quite understand this logic.If God knows the future then i agree we don't have a true free will but since we don't have any ability to foreknow the future , God can rightly judge us as though we have free will.
Did you ever see "The Matrix?"
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
I agree that God can do whatever He wants; however I don't quite understand this logic.
Did you ever see "The Matrix?"
Yes i see the matrix , but in the end maybe it's just a concept that's beyond our ability to know. All i know is that we can't see the future therefore our choices are based on what we can see and do and by the revelation given to us and that is what God will use to judge us.
The key is whether we are coerced to make our choices.
Did you ever see "The Matrix?"
Yes i see the matrix , but in the end maybe it's just a concept that's beyond our ability to know. All i know is that we can't see the future therefore our choices are based on what we can see and do and by the revelation given to us and that is what God will use to judge us.
The key is whether we are coerced to make our choices.
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
I see what you're saying and don't necessarily agree, but for me it comes down to who "locked in" tomorrow? If God locked it in, then the Calvinist is correct. If we locked it in by the choice that we will make freely, then free will and foreknowledge can exist. But at the same time, I totally see what you're saying.TK wrote:Hi Jeff--
If you had PERFECT foreknowledge (as God is said to have), it follows that if you KNEW i would have a ham sandwich tomorrow, then by gum I am going to have it.
It is different if you just make a lucky guess.
That is the dilemma. Since God is said (by some) to know perfectly today what someone will do tomorrow, then that person's tomorrow is "locked in." How could it be otherwise?
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
I never thought I would start such a lengthy discussion! 
I want to say thank you for everyone for your insightful posts on this topic, on both sides of the argument. I tend to "over-think" things like this, but I think for me personally there is a danger of issues like this going from a productive, thought-provoking discussion to a distraction from trying to understand the things I CAN know! I'm not saying this for anyone but myself. I think at this point I need to move on. I understand the philosphical problem of the classical "arminian" view of foreknowledge compared to open theism, and to a certain degree I am sympathetic with that argument. At the same time, however, I think this could be a case of finite creatures trying to understand the infinite. While human logic is extremely useful and 99% of the time can be trusted and used, I think sometimes it just doesn't measure up. I have to keep in mind that the concept of the Trinity is not really "logical". However, I firmly believe that scripture teaches the concept of the Trinity and even though I can't fully understand it using human logic (and never can), I have to accept it on faith. The same thing for God being a being with no beginning. Thinking on this one for very long truly humbles me, and actually frightens me, and shakes me to my very core. It's amazing that a being like that would love something like me. And also it's worth noting that the very bedrock of our faith, the resurrection, is also quite "illogical".
My current position is this - free will does exist. But given the OT passages that seem to indicate that there are some things God does not know, maybe in His sovereignty there are things he has CHOSEN not to know, such as whether a sinner will actually repent. In this way, God's call to repentence could still be a true offer. I also believe that, while free will exists, God has the ability to from time to time bend human will to meet His needs. So I believe some prophecies are a prediction of the future, and others are because He willed it. I guess you could argue that God isn't bending an individual's free will, but rather finds an individual whose choices will suit his purposes (as I have heard Steve Gregg argue).
I want to say thank you for everyone for your insightful posts on this topic, on both sides of the argument. I tend to "over-think" things like this, but I think for me personally there is a danger of issues like this going from a productive, thought-provoking discussion to a distraction from trying to understand the things I CAN know! I'm not saying this for anyone but myself. I think at this point I need to move on. I understand the philosphical problem of the classical "arminian" view of foreknowledge compared to open theism, and to a certain degree I am sympathetic with that argument. At the same time, however, I think this could be a case of finite creatures trying to understand the infinite. While human logic is extremely useful and 99% of the time can be trusted and used, I think sometimes it just doesn't measure up. I have to keep in mind that the concept of the Trinity is not really "logical". However, I firmly believe that scripture teaches the concept of the Trinity and even though I can't fully understand it using human logic (and never can), I have to accept it on faith. The same thing for God being a being with no beginning. Thinking on this one for very long truly humbles me, and actually frightens me, and shakes me to my very core. It's amazing that a being like that would love something like me. And also it's worth noting that the very bedrock of our faith, the resurrection, is also quite "illogical".My current position is this - free will does exist. But given the OT passages that seem to indicate that there are some things God does not know, maybe in His sovereignty there are things he has CHOSEN not to know, such as whether a sinner will actually repent. In this way, God's call to repentence could still be a true offer. I also believe that, while free will exists, God has the ability to from time to time bend human will to meet His needs. So I believe some prophecies are a prediction of the future, and others are because He willed it. I guess you could argue that God isn't bending an individual's free will, but rather finds an individual whose choices will suit his purposes (as I have heard Steve Gregg argue).
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
Hi Jeff-
you have pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. God is so transcendant that we cannot know exactly how this all "works" and we don't really have to know.
It's just a fun sort of thing to kick around but I agree that it isn't terribly important and can be distracting.
A good friend of mine has a cousin who is a fairly new Christian. This cousin told my friend that he has enrolled in a class at his church on predestination. Obviously, my friend is very concerned about what such a class might do to his baby christian cousin. He is keeping close tabs on him.
God bless--
TK
you have pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. God is so transcendant that we cannot know exactly how this all "works" and we don't really have to know.
It's just a fun sort of thing to kick around but I agree that it isn't terribly important and can be distracting.
A good friend of mine has a cousin who is a fairly new Christian. This cousin told my friend that he has enrolled in a class at his church on predestination. Obviously, my friend is very concerned about what such a class might do to his baby christian cousin. He is keeping close tabs on him.
God bless--
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
I'm sorry to hear that about your friend's cousin. I'll be praying for him. I don't completely fall out with Calvinists over the issue since I'm sure many Calvinists are good committed Christians (I have several friends that are Calvinists), but it seems like the prominent Calvinists (Sproul, Piper, White, etc.) don't want to talk about anything but Calvinism. I fear he could either become indoctrinated in Calvinism or it could be damaging to his young faith. My dad (who happens to also be my pastor) and I attend a Bible study on Tuesday nights at another church. I didn't get to go last night, but my dad reported that the night's teacher taught on Calvinsim (pro) for over 1.5 hours. When he was finished, he asked if anyone had anything to say or points of disagreement and then a pretty fiery debate on the topic between him and my dad began...TK wrote:Hi Jeff-
you have pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. God is so transcendant that we cannot know exactly how this all "works" and we don't really have to know.
It's just a fun sort of thing to kick around but I agree that it isn't terribly important and can be distracting.
A good friend of mine has a cousin who is a fairly new Christian. This cousin told my friend that he has enrolled in a class at his church on predestination. Obviously, my friend is very concerned about what such a class might do to his baby christian cousin. He is keeping close tabs on him.
God bless--
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
That's the concern- not calvinism per se, but it is no topic for a newbie to get mired in. there are many more important and pressing things to learn.
TK
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
That's true. A good place to start is to just stick to the words in red (and of course the practical teachings of the apostles). I sometimes have to remind myself not to get too bogged down in prophecy, doctrine, calvinism, topics like this, etc. and lose like of practical Christianity.TK wrote:That's the concern- not calvinism per se, but it is no topic for a newbie to get mired in. there are many more important and pressing things to learn.
TK
Re: Verse that refutes both Calvinism and Open Theism at once?
Jeff wrote:
TK
true- but sometimes I just can't resist. i still need someone to explain Job to me. maybe i will start a new topic.I sometimes have to remind myself not to get too bogged down in prophecy, doctrine, calvinism, topics like this, etc.
TK