Crusader

[Guest]

Oh but I do know you all to well, you start conversations for attention and then you are not interested in ever finishing them. You point out issues but never have a response for any of them, “always trying to build a better mousetrap”. Idle conversation. You are not interested in any answers.

[Guest]

You take things personally too easily.

I have a life besides spending hours and hours out of every day answering all of the posts directed to me on this forum.

Damon

[_Steve]

That is a strange statement. No one engaged you out of nowhere and asked you to answer their questions. You have voluntarily joined into conversations (and started not a few), and put others in the position to devote hours of their time in answering you (believe me, I know!).

In this particular thread, you started the discussion about your friend (the first post was about eternal security, and your response turned the whole discussion another direction). Your statements were so provocative (claiming that God failed to keep some promises that you or your friend subjectively claim He had made) that you could hardly have thought believers in Christ and the scripture could let such libels against God rest unanswered. It is all right that you start a controversy here. Anyone is welcome to do so. But having done so, don't complain that others take up your challenge and take you to task.

Your plea for your friend's privacy makes no sense, since no one reading this knows who you are, and if any of us ever met you, we would still never know who your friend is, unless you would tell us, which you wouldn't. Unless your friend had an experience so unique and remarkable that it could only possibly be one person, and one of us happened to meet that person, there is no possibility that you could betray your friend's confidence by giving enough detail to flesh out the situation you so vaguely allude to. I have to wonder if retaining an aura of mystery serves some purpose of yours in bringing this up.

You sound merely evasive, which is, in this case, I think, the only way you can continue to claim that God made a promise and did not keep it. As long as no one is told what the promise was, or the outcome, no one can prove you wrong (very convenient). On the other hand, if you were to give even general details, then the gauntlet that you have cast in the face of God's integrity could possibly be taken up and answered by someone who actually knows God better (anyone who knows that God does not lie actually knows him better).

Without giving your provocative accusations against God any concrete setting for us to examine, you simply insult God and leave no recourse for anyone to come to His defense. You have been adequately refuted by scripture, by several of those who have posted on this thread, but it has become apparent to any who have followed your posts that scriptural authority does not hold a candle, in your mind, to your more enlightened discernment.

As moderator here, I am going to have to ask that you show greater responsibility in your statements. The forum is designed for questions and answers. I have found you to use it for 1) counseling a woman to leave her husband (about whom you have no personal knowledge) because you "discerned" that the husband was "abusive;" 2) accusing the integrity of God and His promises, but refusing to give any detail that would allow your irresponsible claim to be assessed or critiqued specifically; 3) insisting that your personal divine revelations provide a reliable guide to refuting New Testament doctrines; and 4) (this now is from my discernment) seeking to establish yourself as something of a rabbi in your own right, in posting lengthy, unsolicited, original. authoritative-sounding position papers with the apparent assumption of being above peer review, and accusing some of our contributors of being self-righteous because they had the audacity to "blow-off" (as you put it) your unconvincing arguments.

You have apparently accumulated a headful of "facts," through the years, but have failed to acquire personal knowledge of the faithful God, awareness of Christian ethics in counseling, humility about you own imagined discernment, and thick skin in the face of disagreement. You suggested that Sean had insulted you by disagreeing with you, but that I had disagreed with you in an acceptable way. This was not true. I had confronted you in a manner just like that which Sean had used, but you said that you and I were getting along and you and he were not. You said there was a difference between him and me, but the only difference that I could see was that you knew I have the power to delete your posts, and Sean does not. Pardon me, if I am taking a somewhat cynical approach to your motives, but it is my honest assessment. I won't claim divine inspiration for this discernment, but I am working from the objective evidence you have provided here.

I hope you can take this reproof humbly and can be teachable. It is humbling to be reproved. Just today, a lady wrote to me and told me that I was full of myself, unhumble, and that I used the words, "I," "me," and "my" a lot. That stung to hear! Especially when I looked honestly at her charges and found that they were quite true! Ouch! None of us are above reproof, and I hope that may include you. You have some things of value to say. I hope they might not continue to be marred by irresponsible behavior.

[Guest]

That is a strange statement. No one engaged you out of nowhere and asked you to answer their questions. You have voluntarily joined into conversations (and started not a few), and put others in the position to devote hours of their time in answering you (believe me, I know!).

Steve, am I forcing others to respond to me, or is it their choice?

Secondly, did CFCChristian devote hours and hours to such responses, or is he/she getting upset on behalf of others? Can those others defend themselves if they feel that they've been wronged, or is CFCChristian taking it upon himself to do that?

Thirdly, have I acknowledged answers that I have been given that have given me pause for thought, such as the one you yourself gave me about the patriarch Joseph's situation?

Finally, am I being forced to accept as an answer something that I know won't help, based on personal experience? (For example, people have suggested pointing said friend to the promises of God in order to help them to deal with the situation. Others who have been personally involved in the situation have tried, and it hasn't helped. And it's not my friend's fault, either. They've also had just about enough of others laying the onus on their head for things unjustly!)

I contend that CFCChristian has no business taking me to task for how I've treated or not treated others if those same others have no difficulty with me. But since you apparently do, I'll respond to you here.

Your statements were so provocative (claiming that God failed to keep some promises that you or your friend subjectively claim He had made) that you could hardly have thought believers in Christ and the scripture could let such libels against God rest unanswered. It is all right that you start a controversy here. Anyone is welcome to do so. But having done so, don't complain that others take up your challenge and take you to task.

Steve, I thought about giving more personal details concerning this issue and decided against it. There are just too many things that would need to be explained for the whole situation to make sense to the people reading it and for them to have any possibility of making a righteous judgment concerning it. I've already seen that some of the people who have apparently had a lot of experience as Christians give advice on this situation as they knew it, however well-meaning, that was entirely inappropriate. So I decided to look elsewhere for answers. I didn't find it necessary to fill in everyone on the forum in order to seek for help from the few people who have already given me some help in figuring this out to also put myself at the effect of the ones who have a track record of giving inappropriate advice as well as judging me unjustly.

Well, you've just given me yet another reason to not want to fill in the details. I don't want people to take this as a personal insult to God, because it's not intended to be that. I hope that everyone here is mature enough to be able to see that I mean no disrespect to God, but that I'm struggling to come to terms with what's happening with my friend and desperately seeking answers. I would expect people to respect that without laying unnecessary judgment at my feet for things I never intended.

Your plea for your friend's privacy makes no sense...

Not to you, it doesn't. The situation involves a highly public figure in the local community as well as nationwide. I hadn't intended on mentioning that, but I hate being judged unjustly. I would have preferred to leave things at my comment that "the world is smaller and less anonymous than you think."

I can see that certain people have trouble with respecting boundaries here, though.

As moderator here, I am going to have to ask that you show greater responsibility in your statements. The forum is designed for questions and answers. I have found you to use it for 1) counseling a woman to leave their husband (about whom you have no personal knowledge) because you "discerned" that the husband was "abusive;"

Do you remember that I asked, on that same thread, where the reply that I had posted that morning went? I wasn't sure if you, as moderator, had either closed the thread or deleted my reply, but I wasn't going to make any accusations without knowing the facts. I never judge unjustly that way!!! It seems that the reply got lost. In it, I had intended to clarify where I was coming from, but since I had already spent almost two hours composing that reply which had been totally wasted when the reply went to Neverland, I gave up.

Now it seems like I'm being judged for giving up.

As far as "counseling a woman to leave her husband," I have had personal experience with extremely abusive husbands in the past. One lady I know of has even had to beg her husband for money to buy shoes for her children. He has the money, but is paranoid about spending it. Both he (and she, for that matter) were verbally and physically abused as children and money has become his security blanket. The abuse that both of them suffered has had a profound impact on their marriage. Oh, they're still married - God knows for how much longer, though. When the wife talked in confidence to the very friend who has the situation I mentioned earlier, my friend listened and tried to comfort this woman. But this woman found a way to blame my friend for something that wasn't her fault so she could have an excuse to turn to her husband for comfort. This lady did what's called a "transference" - she transferred the anger and blame she harbored for her husband onto my friend. And like I said before, my friend needs to be judged unjustly like a hole in the head.

What I was attempting to talk about with this woman who posted on the forum about her marital problems was setting proper boundaries. Physical abuse should never be tolerated under any circumstances. Verbal abuse, if it gets to the point of making her relationship with her husband intolerable, then a possible short-term solution would be to separate from - not divorce! - her husband. She could use this space to try to come up with a solution to her marital problems from a more objective perspective, without making an impulsive and emotional decision, instead of being right in the middle of everything.

If you have a problem with that sort of counsel, fine, but I don't want to be judged because I got frustrated when a post that I'd spent two hours on went to Neverland.

4) (this now is from my discernment) seeking to establish yourself as something of a rabbi in your own right, in posting lengthy, unsolicited, original. authoritative-sounding position papers with the apparent assumption of being above peer review, and accusing some of our contributors of being self-righteous because they had the audacity to "blow-off" (as you put it) your unconvincing arguments.

*shakes his head* I'm beginning to realize that no matter what I do or what my real motivation is, people will always find some way to sh-- on me if they can. Steve, I'm a highly intelligent person - like you, it sounds - and I haven't really found a niche where I can feel comfortable and like I "belong." I like sharing things with others and getting comments! Other than this forum, I have little spiritual contact with the wider world. I haven't found a church that I feel comfortable at. I don't have the availability to go to seminars or to a bible college at this point in time. So, I often post on internet forums like this one.

Am I setting myself up to be a rabbi? Not at all. I have a "teacher" personality, according to a personality test I once took, and if I come across that way, that's because of who I am as a person. Nevertheless, I don't expect people to "follow me" or anything even remotely approaching that.

You have apparently accumulated a headful of "facts," through the years, but have failed to acquire personal knowledge of the faithful God,

Says you.

awareness of Christian ethics in counseling,

And where, pray tell, would I learn this? And if I haven't learned it yet, am I going to be harshly criticized for it?

humility about you own imagined discernment,

I guess the reply I gave you, asking if you were interested in me posting specifically what things I was claiming to have discerned through the Holy Spirit, isn't good enough for you. I had said that not everything I've posted here has been directly inspired by the Holy Spirit - although I would hope that it was accurate and inspired nevertheless.

and thick skin in the face of disagreement.

No, that's called setting proper boundaries. For instance, I take umbrage when I feel that people are treating me disrespectfully, and I take steps to reassert my boundaries. Sean had crossed a boundary with me, so I dealt with the situation. Again, I never got angry at him personally, just with the way he treated me.

If you have a problem with that, then I'm sorry but it's your problem and not mine.

You suggested that Sean had insulted you by disagreeing with you, but that I had disagreed with you in an acceptable way. This was not true. I had confronted you in a manner just like that which Sean had used, but you said that you and I were getting along and you and he were not. You said there was a difference between him and me, but the only difference that I could see was that you knew I have the power to delete your posts, and Sean does not. Pardon me, if I am taking a somewhat cynical approach to your motives, but it is my honest assessment. I won't claim divine inspiration for this discernment, but I am working from the objective evidence you have provided here.

Steve, when you yourself crossed a boundary with me in your reply on the "What is the House of God?" thread, I asserted my boundary there too. I'm not being partial, so you'd better be careful in judging righteous judgment here.

I hope you can take this reproof humbly and can be teachable. ...None of us are above reproof, and I hope that may include you. You have some things of value to say. I hope they might not continue to be marred by irresponsible behavior.

So far, I've not seen anything that I've been judged on that wasn't a misinterpretation of my true motives, being criticized for not knowing something I "ought" to know, deciding not to share more details about a personal situation where I've judged that it wouldn't be appropriate, etc.

Damon

[Guest]

Damon I agree completely with Steve and CFChristian.Im glad Steve has posted what he did because its all true. Ive seriously spent time in prayer and hours thinking of you and your friend.I have prayerfully asked the Holy Spirit to guide me in my answers so as to minister to you. Yet you say your to busy ( haveing a life outside of posting here) then on the other hand the next day your so upset you seem on the verge of backsliding. You say your friend is desperate also and people here poor thier hearts out yet you remain vauge. I didnt even read your last response all the way through because its the same old stuff.

On your impuning the character of God with some of your statements I see that as someone who is upset with God. Anyone who knows the Lord and reads His word knows God cant lie. My answers really remain the same...you just need to act on them. I can only postualte from your continued response that you either dont want help,or enjoy the condition your now in.

Jim Dirkin ( Gospel outreach ) was ministering that he was at a crises point and seeking the Lord in prayer and the Lord didnt come back with some long disertaion...He just said " Do My Word"....you need to do this I think. Plus you need to heed the counsel of those here who have given you Godly counsel.

Lastly Ive known Steve for a long time and Hes a solid man of God,gifted teacher and a man of integrity. If he spoke something into my life like that I wouldnt just cast it off as someones quick oppinion. Whatever you choose to do with the things that are shared here I sure hope you prayerfully ask the Lord to sift through them and help you apply them. Im reminded of that Scripture " the wound from a freind is better than the kiss from an enemy". All anyone wants to do here is minster to you. You have your part to play and its my prayer that you will ask the Lord to empower you to do just that.


Lord Bless you

Steve

[Guest]

Damon I agree completely with Steve and CFChristian.Im glad Steve has posted what he did because its all true. Ive seriously spent time in prayer and hours thinking of you and your friend.

I appreciate that, as I did the comment that you made earlier that there's a veritable goldmine here of Christian love, concern, and wisdom. I believe that that's true. However, again, I thought about posting more of the details and I decided that it wouldn't be appropriate.

I hadn't originally intended to tell people why because I wasn't here to cause offense, in case certain people felt offended by my reasons why. If anything, I'd prefer to meet with someone from the forum in real life instead, because that way I can control exactly who I'm sharing details with and we can agree beforehand on certain ground rules so that neither one of us would walk away offended afterwards.

Sadly, I don't think that's feasible.

I have prayerfully asked the Holy Spirit to guide me in my answers so as to minister to you. Yet you say your to busy ( haveing a life outside of posting here) then on the other hand the next day your so upset you seem on the verge of backsliding.

Well, I'm upset, yes, but I'm not falling apart like my friend is. I do want answers - and I've gotten a few here - but Steve Gregg seems like he's having trouble acknowledging that. I suspect I know why, but before I speak out of turn I'd like to wait until he replies to what I wrote. I'm also going to be out of town for the long weekend, so any further replies from me will need to wait until I get back.

On your impuning the character of God with some of your statements I see that as someone who is upset with God. Anyone who knows the Lord and reads His word knows God cant lie.

Am I upset with God? Yes. But I'm in good company. So was Moses, and so was Jeremiah. Am I disrespecting God in the act of being upset? NO. I would hope that people can differentiate between the two.

As far as God not being able to lie, yes, we've been over this before but I don't think you really got where I was coming from. Believing that God can't lie shouldn't just come from what the bible says about God. Believing that God can't lie should come from one's own experience in their walk with God. It's called "proving all things" including one's own faith.

Look at it this way. If you were given a written guarantee that an envelope you were holding had a $100 bill in it and that it was yours to keep and spend, would you just believe it because you had a written guarantee, even from what you personally considered to be the most trustworthy source in the world, or would you look for yourself to see if it were true?

In the Hebrew, to "know" someone (as in to "know" God) can have different connotations, but they're all based on experience. So I'm not wrong in that I need to base what I know about God from personal experience. I still want to believe that God is going to, by some miracle, fulfill the promise He gave, but I'm waiting for the hard evidence first.

And that doesn't mean that I'm not still asking God for answers and for help.

Jim Dirkin ( Gospel outreach ) was ministering that he was at a crises point and seeking the Lord in prayer and the Lord didnt come back with some long disertaion...He just said " Do My Word"....you need to do this I think. Plus you need to heed the counsel of those here who have given you Godly counsel.

Oh, I'm not using the fact that I'm not getting clear answers to NOT "do God's word." Truly and honestly, whether I believed in God or not, I'd still believe that I must live according to love and truth. That's what God expects of anyone. I'm also not giving up on God myself, but I'm questioning why things have happened the way they have.

Lastly Ive known Steve for a long time and Hes a solid man of God,gifted teacher and a man of integrity. If he spoke something into my life like that I wouldnt just cast it off as someones quick oppinion.

I hear you, but Steve is also speaking from lack of understanding of my situation and he won't let that in. Several people on the forum here have made the mistaken assumption that my friend just doesn't really know God (and furthermore, neither do I, they assume), and that that's why my friend is losing their faith. Hardly!

When my friend was a child, Christ literally appeared to them. When my friend was 15 years old, Christ appeared to them again. Not in vision, mind you, but BODILY - but not so anyone else could see Him. A few years ago, when my friend went to look for Jeremiah the prophet's tomb, Christ appeared standing right next to the tomb's entrance. Once again, only my friend could see Him.

Remember when I said that many other promises that God had made to my friend had been fulfilled? It was at one of these times that my friend saw a man with alabaster-white skin and bright red hair, wearing clothes that looked like they were right out of the time of Jesus. Again, no one else could see this man. My friend was later told that this was the arch-angel Gabriel.

Partly resulting from these things that have happened to them, my friend has had rock-solid faith like you wouldn't believe ever since they were a child! For people to assume that they weren't really grounded in faith is ludicrous! They just didn't know the truth of the matter...but they thought they did. And when I tried to tell them differently, they wouldn't let it in. They wouldn't believe me.

But because of recent events, my friend has still suffered the loss of their faith. The situation that my friend has gone through has truly been that horrible that even all of these things that happened in the past weren't enough.

They want to believe in God. They truly do! But they put their heart and soul into following God's will for the past three years, through this situation, only to be totally and completely let down.

I want to believe otherwise, but I don't have any answers (other than the few that people have shared here). And I don't think the forum here can really give the answers I need, no matter their good intentions. I tried asking the important questions and while I did get some help, I also got judged and condemned, and I don't need that.

That's why I don't want to go there, and I hope you can respect that.

Damon

[Guest]

thank you Damon for your honest reply in this forum. I thinks others
as myself, were perhaps trying to display acts of concern for a christian brother. I dont feel its wrong to be disappointed at GOD he's a big DAD
just not to let ourselves get a "root of bitterness" anyways, doesnt seem you are bitter but your friend certainly needs prayer and help at this time.
I shall pray!

[Guest]

Damon...Damon.......Damon

Excuse me if I just dont believe this part right here

" When my friend was a child, Christ literally appeared to them. When my friend was 15 years old, Christ appeared to them again. Not in vision, mind you, but BODILY - but not so anyone else could see Him. A few years ago, when my friend went to look for Jeremiah the prophet's tomb, Christ appeared standing right next to the tomb's entrance. Once again, only my friend could see Him.

Remember when I said that many other promises that God had made to my friend had been fulfilled? It was at one of these times that my friend saw a man with alabaster-white skin and bright red hair, wearing clothes that looked like they were right out of the time of Jesus. Again, no one else could see this man. My friend was later told that this was the arch-angel Gabriel. "

In light of the way this post has gone in your communications I feel this is more a diversion than anything else.I know the Lord can appear to whover He chooses but this whole thing doesnt add up when viewd in light of what youve shared in the past on this post. I mean I wouldnt be surprised you found the Holy Grail in a trailer park in Watsonville in space 53. I mean anythings possible.

Steve

P.S. For those of you who have no sense of humor I apologize for
my seemingly unloveing remark as I closed..but it just seem to fit
into this whole thing somehow

[Guest]

Steve, am I forcing others to respond to me, or is it their choice?

Secondly, did CFCChristian devote hours and hours to such responses, or is he/she getting upset on behalf of others? Can those others defend themselves if they feel that they've been wronged, or is CFCChristian taking it upon himself to do that?

Thirdly, have I acknowledged answers that I have been given that have given me pause for thought, such as the one you yourself gave me about the patriarch Joseph's situation?

Finally, am I being forced to accept as an answer something that I know won't help, based on personal experience? (For example, people have suggested pointing said friend to the promises of God in order to help them to deal with the situation. Others who have been personally involved in the situation have tried, and it hasn't helped. And it's not my friend's fault, either. They've also had just about enough of others laying the onus on their head for things unjustly!)

I contend that CFCChristian has no business taking me to task for how I've treated or not treated others if those same others have no difficulty with me. But since you apparently do, I'll respond to you here.

Damon's comments are above this line -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damon I only challenge the things that you and I have communicated about nothing more than that. I have proposed questions to you in the past and you have evaded them. This is all I am commenting about no one else’s opinions. I would like to dialog with you but it seems you are not interested in a true discussion. You want things of the heart, not interested in doctrine. This seems to repel you, I don’t know why. The heart can be deceiving or deceive us but doctrine (scripture) and love are true gifts of GOD.

When one wants to be married he or she must make a commitment to one another, then they become one (Married) this we will call a DOCTRINE.

Then only after the commitment (Marriage) the two can feel the joys of marriage. LOVE.
Then after the marriage then the love (sensual) is permitted, but not until the doctrine was establish.

This is why doctrine is so important to the discussions at hand Damon thats why I insist that we speak of doctrine to establish or place then we can move on to the joys of things that will come to pass. I think you know what I am talking about you or anyone can go back and read my past comments to you, which we have talked about in the past on this forum.

Your friend in CHRIST

CFChristian (Male)

[Guest]

As far as God not being able to lie, yes, we've been over this before but I don't think you really got where I was coming from. Believing that God can't lie shouldn't just come from what the bible says about God. Believing that God can't lie should come from one's own experience in their walk with God. It's called "proving all things" including one's own faith.

Look at it this way. If you were given a written guarantee that an envelope you were holding had a $100 bill in it and that it was yours to keep and spend, would you just believe it because you had a written guarantee, even from what you personally considered to be the most trustworthy source in the world, or would you look for yourself to see if it were true?

The problem is, our experiences are subjective. Look how the Jews argued against Jesus. They were tripped up because Jesus said He had to die and be raised, they said the Messiah was suppose to live forever, so they didn't believe. They wanted Jesus to do many things He didn't do, because thier feelings about what the Bible said was in error. The Bible wasn't in error, but they were. Even though Jesus proved who He was, many of them were mad at Him for not doing what they expected.

My wife recieved an answer to her prayer about becoming pregnant. After many tests and over a year of trying she finally gave up with the doctors and gave up being mad at God for having a miscarriage and then not being able to bear another child. God gave her an answer. Very specifically she was told when and that it would be a son and what name to give him (Jacob). This is the only time she had told me that she recieved an answer to her prayer(s) and I doubted what she heard. So I told her we would test what was told to her, and what was told to her happened. In 3-4 weeks (about the amount of time it takes for a pregnancy test to show positive) she was pregnant and it was a boy. My first son (I already had a daughter). I know this came from God, not because what my wife was told, but because it happened as predicted. We can't think we know were a promise comes from without testing it to see if it comes to pass and having faith that if it is from God that it will come to pass. If the promise fails then it's clear that it was not a promise from God.

So my point is that if we recieve an unconditional promise from God that fails, it was not a promise from God or we have misunderstood the promise.

When my friend was a child, Christ literally appeared to them. When my friend was 15 years old, Christ appeared to them again. Not in vision, mind you, but BODILY - but not so anyone else could see Him. A few years ago, when my friend went to look for Jeremiah the prophet's tomb, Christ appeared standing right next to the tomb's entrance. Once again, only my friend could see Him.

Remember when I said that many other promises that God had made to my friend had been fulfilled? It was at one of these times that my friend saw a man with alabaster-white skin and bright red hair, wearing clothes that looked like they were right out of the time of Jesus. Again, no one else could see this man. My friend was later told that this was the arch-angel Gabriel.

Well I don't quite understand that. You are aware of the passage in Acts that says heaven must recieve Christ until the restoration period...

I don't believe Jesus can appear bodily until this time. He can send angels and visions (as Paul said when he saw Jesus it was a vision Acts 26:19). But Jesus appearing bodily happend until penticost and now He sits at the right hand until His enemies are defeated.