robbyyoung wrote:
Hello Sean,
You are seeking to comprehend God's sovereignty, but, I think you are redefining what being "chosen in Him" means biblically. Note the following biblical definition:
Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified
I don't see how Romans 8's "golden chain" contradicts what I said. It seems to fit well with what I have stated.
First, it (Rom 8:29-30) states that those whom he foreknew he predestined. I understand this to mean God predestined "those". The basis was His foreknowledge, as in knowledge of the future.
Second, it states that what is predestined for "those" is that they be conformed to the image of His Son.
Third, it states that "those" are predestined, called, justified &
glorified!
Are we glorified? Not yet. We are awaiting that day (2 Thes 2:14). But "in Christ" we are, because He is glorified. Those who are "in Him" share in all things that belong to Christ. In this sense we can be said to be all those things listed in Romans 8:30, just as it can be said of us that we are seated in heavenly places "in Christ" (Eph 2:6). We are not seated in heavenly places, but Christ is. So if we are "in Christ" we are seated in heavenly places and we are also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (glorified).
"Those" whom He foreknew are the group of believers called the church. They are the ones God foreknew and predestined to be like Jesus. But the group called the church can have people come into it by faith and can also be cut off by unbelief as Paul states in Romans 11 with his olive tree illustration.
It does not say we were predestined
to be in Christ! We are chosen if we are in Him and we are lost if we are not in Him. Only "in Him" do we find eternal life (1 John 5:11-12).
robbyyoung wrote:
John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. (Sounds like chosen to be in him to me)
John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
These passages don't seem to help your case. John 17:6 says "they were Yours and You gave them to Me". This means that, if we read in context, these people were not the devils people but rather those who belong to the Father. These were already the faithful remnant within Israel who were awaiting the Messiah. God took those people, who were already faithful, and gave them to Jesus. In other words, the Messiah has arrived and God has handed this remnant to the Messiah during this transition period. But the gospel has since that time gone out to all nations, to people held captive by the devil. Freeing these people is not a matter of freeing people from the Father and giving them to Jesus (as John 17:6 states). These are two different things.
Additionally, John 17:12 refutes the notion that John chapters 6 & 10 prove unconditional election or perseverance of the saints. Since Judas fell away, even though John 6:44 states: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." But Judas came and was in fact chosen to be an apostle with the other 11 yet fell away. An exception to the rule means John 6:44 & John 10:28 aren't unconditional.
robbyyoung wrote:
Again, I'm not trying to find clever ways to say "God really means" and totally redefine plain contextual language. The question I have is, does He (God) quicken every soul to respond to the call? If so, we rejoice, but it by no means makes void God's prerogative, and just in case we question that right, He says:
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
So I just accept and yield to His majesty. God Bless!
I don't see any evidence in scripture where God regenerates before someone responds to the gospel call. You are born again when you believe, not before.
As far as Romans 9 that you quote. I understand this differently. The statement "who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" is an example of Paul pointing out the error of the man's statement: "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?". Paul is essentially saying to that man: 'you are resisting His will by "answering back" to God. Paul is not agreeing with the man in saying that no one resists God's will, Paul is saying God does find fault because people do resist his will, in this case back-talking God is resisting Him.
