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If God can't know something before it happens, then He's got a strange way of knowing things He shouldn't be able to know. God accurately predicts many future free will choices people would do in the future. Psalm 22 speaks of specific things that would occur at the crucifiction, yet Paidion's response to this is that it wasn't a prophecy. Nice logic. It seems 2+2 can equal something other than 4.
Paidon does not have a clue, but he is at least more consistent than the others who deny Calvinism or Open Theism.
I believe the Open Theist would say that the future is "partially" open and "partially" closed; thus, he can assure that some things will happen (and prophesy them) and leave open some actions and decisions on our part that won't interfere with that.
That is about as logical as saying that parallel lines meet at some point.
Perhaps the saving grace of the Non Calvinist is his inability to properly reason. If so, it is a mercy!
My wife believes that God can know the future exhaustively, that such knowledge can be infallible, that we aren't therefore free to choose other than God foreknew, but somehow we still have freewill -- I don't understand this.
Neither do I, but if we define free will properly, your wife will be correct and your not understanding should disapear.
I believe we all lack some formal training and vocabulary in formal logic to express these things and it's a bit frustrating on my part -- our understanding can't adequately be discussed if we don't have a vocabulary for it, it seems.
Tis very true...
CS Lewis believed that God is "outside" our time stream, and therefore time does not progress on a timeline for Him like it does for us. To us, there is a past, present (which doesnt last very long) and a future. To God, everything is "now" for lack of a better word. so its not so much that he knows we will do something, he simply sees us doing it. i think this approach deals with the free will argument, and explains foreknowledge at the same time.
No it does not, unless we are willing to live with a god who is a mere spectator!, a voyeur of divine proportions. No thanks, the Biblical God is way better, and Him I shall believe, trust and defend, not that He needs my help!
he goes into this in some depth in one the early chapters of "mere christianity." i liked this approach, because it satisfied me.
You are easily satisfied. Lewis was not an orthodox Christian btw! He was way out of left field on some important doctrines.
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To God, everything is "now" for lack of a better word. so its not so much that he knows we will do something, he simply sees us doing it. i think this approach deals with the free will argument, and explains foreknowledge at the same time.
Yes, I recently re-read that chapter in light of the present discussion, and it just doesn't answer (to my mind anyway) the objections raised to it by the Open Theists. First, I don't see any difference between simple foreknowledge of an event and God simply "seeing us doing it."
True enough....
They suggest that even if God were to only see us doing it in the future, that still means that this outcome is fixed from his perspective.
Yep, again true.
If so, then we have no power to make any other decision than we did when he saw it in eternity past –
Yep, again very perceptive.
it would also do no good to pray for God to guide us or direct us to an outcome that might differ, so there goes not only our freewill but also God's ability to change things.
Now here is where Calvinism using scripture escapes such logic. God is not just outside of time, but He has chosen to interact completely and utterly within it, which means that such things as prayer are a means that God has pre-determined to be used and therefore has value in the here and now. God is way ahead of your finite ideas!
I think the saving point of the OT perspective is that they don't suggest that EVERYTHING is open, but that some things (according to God's will) are fixed and determined and certain,
That is illogical and therefore makes no sense. If someone who was “free” in the grand scheme of things actually was free, then that freedom would be a threat to God’s sovereignty and therefore could undo those things which God has ordained, and of course, the whole idea is preposterous in light of scripture.
but that for SOME other things God veils his foreknowledge so that we can exercise our freewill and make choices in a very real and not artificial way.
Yeah, and god not knowing what these choices are might end up being side-swiped? I do not think so!
The whole idea is an abominable slight upon the God of scripture who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.
What do you think? How can we make decisions within some meaningful definition of freewill and God still have perfect and complete foreknowledge in the past of those future decisions?
It is called human volition according to human nature.
Therein lies your dilemma.
A nature bound within its own predetermined limits, yet a nature that makes real choices.
The only free creature in the Universe is God, and the position is well and truly filled!
Satan was the one who tried to deceive humans about their nature in the garden. Stop listening to him!
I do see how it would work, logically, if we remove God's omnipotence -- otherwise, how can he change something that is already known by him to be otherwise?
Open Theists have done exactly that. They have a modified view of it, which is a false view, therefore a rejection of what Omnipotence always meant in the Church orthodox.
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Like I said, I disagree. If a real psychic (like the one that seems to be mentioned in Acts 16:16) tells the future, they don't "force" you do do what they "see", they simply see what will be done.
Sean, you are attacking a straw man, here. No one claims that foreknowledge forces behaviour. What I have been stating all along is that if anyone “knows” beforehand what a person will choose to do, then a statement about the person’s choice before that choice is made has to be either true or false . And I think I have shown that if such a statement being true or false contradicts free choice.
Also, no one “simply sees what will be done.” If that were true, how could the person do otherwise? For if he did do other than what was “simply seen”, then his action was not “simply seen” at all!
This is where I hate to agree with an Open Theist, but I do so because they seem to grasp the issues much better than other Non Calvinists. Of course, in doing so, they are so much the worse off for their position before the God of scripture.
Sean, I am reasonably sure that the Open Theist can reason better than you, but I do pray that you will never enter into his or her theology, for to do so, would mean denying the God you now believe in, albeit imperfectly and with much error, but enough to maintain the Biblical God who is sovereign and Omnipotent and Omniscient.
However, what God predicts, and even says, sometimes does not come true.
Either that god is stupid, or maybe you have misunderstood? I think God is not stupid.
God said, “After she has done all these things she will return to Me”, but she did not return to Him Jeremiah 3:7. God wasn’t lying.
Why not, maybe this god was lying. Anything is possible when we have the wrong god in view.
God was predicting. But great as God’s predictions are, they sometimes turn out differently from what He thought.
Yep. The blasphemy spouted here is amazing to behold. It truly is amazing.
Because He created man with free will, man's choices are sometimes surprising.
Man, the idea that man surprises God is the result of this heresy. I pray no one here embraces such blasphemy as this false theology teaches.
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You assume that what is known or unknown to us, using our level of logic applies to God's knowledge. To this I refer to Romans 11:33-36.
Similarly, to say that He can’t know the unknowable, in no way denies His omniscience.
This is some strange fire being espoused here! As if there is anything unknowable to God!
What heresy!
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;
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I think the OT prophetic scriptures are more than enough to show the God has foreknowledge of events before they occur, the book of Daniel is enough to disprove the notion that God does not know the future free will acts of man.
If you show me a million black ravens, is that “more than enough” to show that all ravens are black? I don’t think so.
However, if I show you just one white raven, I have proved that not all ravens are black.
What you have proved is nothing of the sort!
All you have disproved is that not all ravens are black, but you have not proved the real issue, which is are all ravens black except for one?
Open theism has certain presuppositions that equate to the idea that all ravens are black except for one!
God knows certain things about the future but not all of the future. Same thing as saying that I can find one passage that proves the others wrong. That is the price you pay for embracing Open theology, and it is sad, but heretical.
They twist the scriptures to their own destruction and do so unashamedly!
2Pe 3:16.
The fact that the statements of prophecy usually come true, are not sufficient to show that God has foreknowledge of the choices of people before they make those choices. This simply demonstrates that God is an excellent predictor.
He knows the hearts and minds of people and can predict accordingly. However, if I show you just one instance in which God’s prediction did not come true, (and I have shown more than one), then that is my white raven.
No, it is your dogmatism, and such an attitude walks blindly in pitch darkness, thinking he sees black ravens all around him, or is in a snow storm and sees white ravens all about him.
The fact you think you see clearly with a few misunderstood passages over and against a brightness as blinding as the noon day sun, only exposes your own utter blindness and nothing else.
The bottom line is that pre-knowledge of human choices is logically contradictory to free will.
With that I completely agree with the Open Theist heretics.
The bible doesn't state explicitly, "Every person has a free will." The writers in their day took it for granted.
I could provide many “ravens” myself here to the contrary, but will it matter to an open Theist who reads his presuppositions into the text, or will simply seek out one difficult passage against the many and rest upon it no matter how many other passages are crystal clear?
Unless the Holy Spirit intervenes, no changing of mind will take place, and I for one am encouraged that God the Holy Spirit can and does do this “intervening” for all of those Christ prayed for in John 17:9.
Our slavery to sin is a choice in and of itself. At least that's what I've always thought the verse below to be saying.
Man, a choice is only a free will choice if the will is not compelled from outside influence to choose accordingly.
No person of any belief denies that man makes choices!
People need to stop making “choice” a synonym for “free will”.
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Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.
The bible doesn't state explicitly, "Every person has a free will." The writers in their day took it for granted.
Scripture does not teach “free will”.
Philosophy teaches this concept not scripture.
When will some of you even begin to remotely grasp this simple yet easily observable fact?
For free will to be true, one must rise above his nature and act in ways that are contrary to that nature, and act in ways that allow free actions not influenced, affected or bearing any relationship to factors outside of his control. Such a man does not exist, even the Son of Man as Man did not have free will! Are sinners somehow greater in their will and nature than even Jesus the God/Man?
What the bible does teach is that every person will be judged according to his works. It doesn't make sense to judge a person for deeds that he couldn't help doing.
My, how far post modern man has fallen!
This is the same ideology that empties the prisons and comforts the guilty!
Even in this life, courts will not hold a person to be guilty of a crime, if psychiatrists found them to be so mentally unbalanced that they were incapable, at the time, of choosing otherwise.
Yes, and this life is the standard for understanding scripture, right?
Man today is diseased with bad thinking and what we need to do is have our brains washed. Yes, I am totally serious. We need our minds to be renewed by the Word of God faithfully preached as in days gone by.
Give to Dr Phil what belongs to him, but render to God what belongs to Him!
You make a good point Paidion but on the other hand if man has a free will choice why would 98% of humanity choose to go to hell or the lake of fire? It seems to me the choices we make are significantly influenced by something.
They certainly are influenced by something and it really frustrates me no one here is saying what it is!
For those truly desiring to understand, I submit the following scripture.
2Pe 2:19
Yes we can overcome but the overwhelming majority does'nt.
Why is that?
Is scripture silent on this issue? See scripture ref above.
In fact, how many here believe scripture is inspired, infallible and our sole authority as Christians? Just curious.
They are accountable to God no doubt but from a Christian Universalist view it seems to me that in the lake of fire perhaps man will truly have a free will for the first time.
When scripture speaks of those who perish as being “filthy still” Rev 22:11
I cannot believe some here have any regard for scripture and what it teaches about these matters.
No one "chooses to go to hell"; rather most people choose to further their own comfort and pleasure in the most expeditious way they know how.
True again.
Most of them don't believe in hell.
Amen.
I am not sure how God will deal with those who have never heard the gospel, or are mentally incapable of responding to it. That doesn't seem to have been revealed. But I believe He will do His best for every individual.
God shall do what is right and proper to do. Scripture affirms this explicitly.
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
I know that everyone will be judged by their works (which I think indicates their character). I think the judgment possibly may be more complex than a "heaven or hell" situation.
Meaning what exactly?!?
As I see it, man truly has a free will now, and it won't be any freeër when he's in the lake of fire. Our choices are related to our character. We are likely to make choices according to our character. A prime example is God Himself. The scripture says that He "cannot lie". That doesn't mean that it is not within His power to lie, but that it is contrary to His character.
Amen. Except for the free will part.
The fact that God cannot lie does not imply that He is "less free" than we.
True.
Indeed, as we are being conformed to the image of Christ --- as "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion", our characters develop, and although we remain free to choose the wrong, we are much more likely to choose the right.
Because, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion"
How quickly we seem to forget that, even when we quote it in the very same sentence!
Let it have the full force it deserves is my counsel.
After Jesus puts the finishing touches on us at His coming, and we become fully mature, we may never again choose evil, not because we can't, but because of our perfected character.
Lol, this sounds almost like sinless perfectionism!, but it also sounds as if we shall nearly be ready for Heaven at His coming, and yet scripture tells us that some are barely saved by the skin of their teeth so to speak.
1Co 3:15
I am guessing that when those who will be in the lake of fire, who repent and submit to Christ, just as we did, will have their characters begin to develop, just as ours did. They, too, will have to be perfected. At that point, they will no longer choose rebellion or evil ---- in accordance with their characters.
Universalism eh?
I have been misreading some of these posts obviously, but that is ok, others may get the drift of my posts.
who repent and submit to Christ, just as we did
Imagine the hide of someone believing they have done something that others have not done? They should just pat themselves on the back and ask God to praise them!
1Co 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
Mark
