"The Open View of God" or "Open Theis

[Guest]

hi paidon/michelle--

michelle said: Why can't God preform the logically impossible? Didn't Jesus say the all things are possible to God? Could that include the logically impossible too?-

i guess that is what i have been trying to say, apparently unsuccessfully, i might add. Paidon.. i understand what you are saying. however, isn't it generally accepted in quantum theory today that a particle can be in two different places at the same time? this would seem logically impossible, but nevertheless seems to be the case.

i think there is so much we don't know about how God exists, that it is just possible that our logic doesnt apply.

when i was in college i read a story called "flatland". it was very interesting. essentially, it was about a two dimensional being (a circle, or square, i believe) being visited by a three dimensional sphere. because the circle existed in only two dimensions, when the sphere visited him the circle could not "see" the sphere as a sphere, rather the circle saw him as the circle saw other two dimensional objects, as a straight line. (you have to imagine the circle living on a flat plane and all other two dimensional objects existing on that flat plane as well, so from the circle's perspective, all other 2 dimensional beings appeared as straight lines). the sphere tried his best to explain his nature to the circle. he would raise himself slowly out of the circle's plane, and try to explain that as he did so, the straight line observed by the circle would get smaller, as less of the diameter of the sphere was in the circle's plane of existence. i know this is rather confusing, but the point of the story was the difficulty of a being living in a different dimension would have explaining itself to a being in a lower dimension.

as another illustration, we know that if you move a point (zero dimension) through space you get a line(1 dimensions); if you move the line perpendicular to itself you get a plane(2 dimensions); if you move the plane upward you get a cube(3 dimensions). how do we move the cube to get to four dimensions? we cannot comprehend this.

but physicists now tell us there are at least 10 dimensions. if this is true, then God is in all of them. this is precisely the reason that i think our measly rules and logic just might not apply to God.

TK

[Guest]

And probably why time and cause and effect may not exist in the heavenly dimensions. If we can't imagine a 5th dimension, then how can we EVER even HOPE that we can understand some of the dichotomies and paradoxes surrounding God's omniscience and omnipresence. I'm not sure that even believers in heaven will be bound by our present physical and dimensional realities, but a creator of this universe could surely not be. (of course, this is extra-scriptural ruminations, but it's interesting nonetheless).

[Guest]

Why should this or any prophecy being fulfilled be beyond us being able to figure out? God told us how prophecies are fulfilled "I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass, I have planned , and I will do it" Isa 46.11
"My purposes shall stand ,and I will fulfill my intention" Isa 46.10
God intervenes into our world and clearly says "I WILL DO IT" with reference to things he will bring to pass and if he shares that information with us we understand them to be prophecies.

Remember with regards to the flood it's not just that God regretted his actions but he changed course and took decisive action to restart mankind and with Israel he removed their protective hedge when they were disobedient.

God expressed disappointment with Israel meaning they did'nt meet his expectations.
"I thought how i would set you among my children , and i thought you would call me , My Father and would not turn from following me" Jer 3.19-20
If the future is set in stone how can God twice say he "thought" something would happen and it did'nt.
And God did'nt just make rhetorical statements for our benefit because he took follow up action, i.e. flood,hedge removal and divorce from Israel.


Hi et al, People have presuppositions about God and i think this leads to philosophies about God but scripture says specific things about the nature of God all over the place from Genesis to Revelation. Calvinists take some verses about God preordaining something and arbitrarily apply it to everything but clearly God often decides not to intervene and takes the risk of letting man's free will play itself out. The fact that God often takes actions after his disappointment shows that these statements s/b taken at face value.
Re whether God can do the impossible ,of course he can but he chooses to give man true free will agent status possibly because God is love and to truly love you have to let go, at least a little.

[Guest]

Paidion, I'm leaning toward open theism (shh, don't tell Gene Cook), but I still have some problems to come to terms with. Here's one: Why can't God preform the logically impossible? Didn't Jesus say the all things are possible to God?

Yes, Michelle. Jesus did say that. And it's true. All things are possible with God.

Could that include the logically impossible too?

No, it couldn't. Why? Because nothing which is logically impossible is a "thing". Why is it not a thing? Because it's logically impossible.

Paidon.. i understand what you are saying. however, isn't it generally accepted in quantum theory today that a particle can be in two different places at the same time? this would seem logically impossible, but nevertheless seems to be the case.

Yes, it seems logically impossible. I understand that quantum theory is based on Einstein's theory of relativity. In my opinion that theory is based on the behaviour of light, and does not necessarily correspond to reality. I do not see time as a fourth dimension, but simply as a temporal measurement of the passing of events. I am not convinced that a particle exists in two different places simultaneously. I think that quantum theory does not always reflect reality, but is practically useful and will retained until a better theory comes along. No comprehensive theory of time and space yet exists. All of the present theories encounter logical contradictions when dealing with any reality outside their domain.
So we cannot rationally presume that the assumptions of these theories, such as the one you mentione --- that particles exist in two different places simultaneously --- is a description of actual reality.

i think there is so much we don't know about how God exists, that it is just possible that our logic doesnt apply.

You seem to be using "logic" in the sense of "reasoning". I am not speaking of "our logic", I am speaking of LOGIC per se.

If S is a statement, then both "S" and "not S" cannot be true. This is a logical fact independent of who reasons about it.

[Guest]

In the classical view of God ,he is portrayed as immutable, all knowing including everything that will happen in the future. If this is true then nothing should surprise God since he knows every future event, every descision to be made by every person and when they will make it. Is that how the bible portrays God?


"Father i have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son, make me like one of your hired men. So he got up and went to his father."
But while he was still a long way off ,his father saw him and was FILLED WITH COMPASSION for him, he RAN to his son, THREW his arms around him and KISSED him."
"The son said to him, Father i have sinned against heaven and against you, I am no longer worthy to be called your son."
"But the father said to his servants. Quick ,bring the best robes and put it on him . Put a ring on his finger and sandels on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a FEAST AND CELEBRATE. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again,he was lost and is found. So they began to CELEBRATE." Luke 15.20-24


If God is immutable and knows every detail of the future nothing should surprise him yet in this parable recited by Jesus he describes Father God as being overjoyed by his son's repentence. And it sure looks like spontaneous joy to me. Look at the words Jesus used to describe God's reaction, "filled with compassion", "ran to him", "threw his arms around him and kissed him", "feast and celebrate." This is spontaneous joy.

[Guest]

If God is immutable and knows every detail of the future nothing should surprise him yet in this parable recited by Jesus he describes Father God as being overjoyed by his son's repentence. And it sure looks like spontaneous joy to me. Look at the words Jesus used to describe God's reaction, "filled with compassion", "ran to him", "threw his arms around him and kissed him", "feast and celebrate." This is spontaneous joy.

I think that a father would be upset with a childs sin when it happens, even if he knows ahead of time (which all fathers do) that the child will sin.

Likewise, even though the Father knew that the "son" would repent, it still made him happy when the event took place in time.

I don't see anything wrong with this understanding.

I don't see any reason it would be necessary to equate joy with suprise. Could it not be that the father, who has always known that the time would come when the son would come back to him would not be overjoyed when the event finally came to pass?

[Guest]

I don't see any reason it would be necessary to equate joy with suprise. Could it not be that the father, who has always known that the time would come when the son would come back to him would not be overjoyed when the event finally came to pass?

Derek, It's possible but if the Father always knew that the son would repent and the exact time it would happen then why would he have a celebration and a feast and be overjoyed about an event that was set in stone from the creation of the universe.
So if it's set in stone when every single sinner will repent and who they are and yet God is overjoyed each time even though he knew in advance when and where it would happen to the second.
IMO if you take this parable at face value it does'nt appear to me that the Father knew for sure the son would return or when it would happen. But if you disagree that's ok, it's just our opinions.

[Guest]

I don't see any reason it would be necessary to equate joy with suprise. Could it not be that the father, who has always known that the time would come when the son would come back to him would not be overjoyed when the event finally came to pass?

Derek, It's possible but if the Father always knew that the son would repent and the exact time it would happen then why would he have a celebration and a feast and be overjoyed about an event that was set in stone from the creation of the universe.

This kind of goes back to my point. He had the celebration because he was happy when it came to pass. I don't see how knowing before hand would change the father's happiness.

Let's say my wife is gone to Europe for three months. I know that she will be back on --/--/--. Just because I know that, does that mean I won't be really happy to see her when she gets back? I can't throw a welcome home party?

IMO if you take this parable at face value it does'nt appear to me that the Father knew for sure the son would return or when it would happen. But if you disagree that's ok, it's just our opinions.

Well, I really don't think that the father in the parable did know, being a human. I realize that God is in mind here, but it is a parable. Personally, I would not press every detail of the human father's behaviour onto the heavenly Father.

[Guest]

Let's say my wife is gone to Europe for three months. I know that she will be back on --/--/--. Just because I know that, does that mean I won't be really happy to see her when she gets back? I can't throw a welcome home party?

Would you invite me? Of course you would because you would have planned it but here all the things the Father did were spontaneous.


OK ,here is a question. Several times in the bible God warns people that he may blot out their names from the Book Of Life, Ex 32.33, Rev 3.5, Rev 22.18 . If God knew from eternity that certain names would be blotted out of his book , why did he bother to put them there in the first place?
Taken at face value this "blotting out" describes a genuine change in God's attitude toward these people , and does'nt this suggest that their eternal destiny was not fixed in God's mind from the start?

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said:
"In my opinion, Jesus succeeded in predicting accurately Peter's martyrdom because He 'knew what was in man'. He knew Peter's impulsiveness. He knew the hearts of those who later put Peter to death.
But did He KNOW in advance what Peter would choose? Did He know in advance what Peter's killers would choose. I have shown that this is logically impossible. If I was wrong, then it must be possible to find a flaw in my argument."

In the case of Jesus foretelling Peter's martyrdom I believe the only plausable explanation is that Jesus knew exactly what would happen. It was no mere prediction as one would make by an educated guess. Jesus knew Peter's impulsiveness, that's true, and it would likely get Peter in trouble at some point, but also might have caused him to deny Jesus again under pressure. And how would Jesus "know the hearts" of those who would kill Peter unless He knew who they were and where Peter would go?

Seems to me God had a veto power over events in Peter's life; He miraculously rescued him from prison. Peter might well have met Steven's fate.

My own opinion is that God, through the Spirit, informed Jesus of Peter"s future and God saw that Peter lived until He allowed wicked men to take Peter's life of their own free will.

If Jesus made predictions based on no more than highly educated "good guesses" then it would seem likely that some of them would have been wrong. His record seems pretty impressive, predicting AD 70 and all.

There may be no "hole in your argument", it just may not apply to an infinite being who operates outside the limits of time and dimension that constrain us. I believe scripture informs us that God knows the future and we have free will. The apparent paradox troubles me not at all.