Seems that calvinists often quote passages that lean in their direction.
As a monergist I do see other passages that imply God gets what he wants. However, I agree with the notions that these verses do not demand a determinist notion.
If a calvinist is going to make a case for their position they should do so much more carefully.
At least use scripture that is problematic for the arminian. This would prove more effective than just throwing out seemingly calvinist passages.
Probably all of us have heard time and time again these same verses thrown at us as if it were some new missle added to the calvinist arsenal.
Aug
Election to hell is God's choice
Home I like your post, (nice to meet you by the way)...Homer wrote:Just a thought regarding predestination and Israel (I haven't taken time to study this in any depth). Wasn't Israel (all of them) "predestined" by God to have the promised land as a home when God brought them out of Egypt, and yet how many of them got there? Most of them were slain in the desert! I realize the word "predestined" isn't used in the account but isn't the same idea present in Israel's story?
It is most interesting and pertinent that Paul applies their fate as a warning to Christians, including himself, in 1 Corinthians 10. Perhaps Paul can be excused because he never had the opportunity to be enlightened by Augustine and Calvin.
I do not think however it is correct to say that because many isrealites were destroyed that means they were predestined for destruction or not. Seems like paul simply uses the passage to communicate that there are consequences for evil doing (Rebellion against God).
If one takes the models presented in scripture, you are right All of Isreal was predestined because of many reasons. But the interesting point in the model is, if Egypt represents sin then Isreal must represent THE WHOLE WORLD. (Yes I'm a Universal reconciliationists) And I find it hard to believe that Egypt represents the sinful world, since the sinful world is the one who is in bondage to sin. Thus I find Isreal represents namely 2 things. 1. God son in bondage to death. 2. Mankind in bondage to death.
Yes there are other models like out of Egypt I have called my son. But the death and ressurection are Def in the Exodus as well.
Just some thoughts,
Aug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Aug,
Welcome and nice to meet you!
I have thought of Egypt as representing life in sin, crossing the Red Sea as our baptism and renunciation of our past life, the wandering in the desert our life as Christians, crossing the Jordan as our death, and Israel as Heaven. That's just my take. Many of the events of the OT seem to foreshadow greater realities:
1 Corinthians 10:11 (New King James Version)
11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Kind of makes your hair stand up to think that God arranged real historical events as a kind of allegory for our benefit.
Welcome and nice to meet you!
I have thought of Egypt as representing life in sin, crossing the Red Sea as our baptism and renunciation of our past life, the wandering in the desert our life as Christians, crossing the Jordan as our death, and Israel as Heaven. That's just my take. Many of the events of the OT seem to foreshadow greater realities:
1 Corinthians 10:11 (New King James Version)
11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Kind of makes your hair stand up to think that God arranged real historical events as a kind of allegory for our benefit.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer,
Yea I was just looking at a book called "The Typology of Scripture" by some guy named Farifan or Fairway something like that.
I found its intro Quite interesting. He studied the early church fathers and said they all believed in the typologies but the one he found to be favorable for his expanse was Origien (The Universalist).
As a UR I find that quite interesting. He states that Origien, unlike the other church fathers, saw more than two or three fold but FOUR fold.
I def think there is a three fold but it might be more and I wonder what Origiens take on that issue was. It looks like this book is a HARD read.
From the UR the typologies make a great case that Isreal demonstrates for us what God is doing with his Son. But at the same time it demonstrates for us what he's doing with Mankind. The reality hit HARD for me when (Like Gregory Mcdonald) I realized that Adam was not just a type of Isreal but that Isreal is also a type of Adam. Mcdonald notes this very imporant view point in his book as he demonstates the U interpretation of "Isreal".
I had come upon this w/o reading Mcdonald and quickly I began to study myself. When I realized how the models are all shiftable and still maintain a consisten form I WAS AWE STRUCK that more people don't believe the bible is inspired than some human author.
I've been actually endorsing that Pharoa is a model of Adam being saved even. Paul states in Romans a interesting point that (if you listen to steves debate with James white) James does not quote correctly.
http://www.gigpc.net/james%20white.mp3
time sig: of dabte day 3
00:26:36 to 00:26:45
He seems to narrow down the point of God's plan of phaora to a limited plan that favors the calvinist.
Aug
Yea I was just looking at a book called "The Typology of Scripture" by some guy named Farifan or Fairway something like that.
I found its intro Quite interesting. He studied the early church fathers and said they all believed in the typologies but the one he found to be favorable for his expanse was Origien (The Universalist).
As a UR I find that quite interesting. He states that Origien, unlike the other church fathers, saw more than two or three fold but FOUR fold.
I def think there is a three fold but it might be more and I wonder what Origiens take on that issue was. It looks like this book is a HARD read.
From the UR the typologies make a great case that Isreal demonstrates for us what God is doing with his Son. But at the same time it demonstrates for us what he's doing with Mankind. The reality hit HARD for me when (Like Gregory Mcdonald) I realized that Adam was not just a type of Isreal but that Isreal is also a type of Adam. Mcdonald notes this very imporant view point in his book as he demonstates the U interpretation of "Isreal".
I had come upon this w/o reading Mcdonald and quickly I began to study myself. When I realized how the models are all shiftable and still maintain a consisten form I WAS AWE STRUCK that more people don't believe the bible is inspired than some human author.
I've been actually endorsing that Pharoa is a model of Adam being saved even. Paul states in Romans a interesting point that (if you listen to steves debate with James white) James does not quote correctly.
http://www.gigpc.net/james%20white.mp3
time sig: of dabte day 3
00:26:36 to 00:26:45
He seems to narrow down the point of God's plan of phaora to a limited plan that favors the calvinist.
Aug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
This analogy seems to break down at the last stage. After crossing the Jordan and entering the promised land, the Israelites had many enemies to overcome. Will that be the case in Heaven?Homer wrote:I have thought of Egypt as representing life in sin, crossing the Red Sea as our baptism and renunciation of our past life, the wandering in the desert our life as Christians, crossing the Jordan as our death, and Israel as Heaven.
Major Ian Thomas in his The Saving Life of Christ understands the symbolism in this way:
1. Egypt --- the non-Christian state
2. The crossing of the Red Sea --- initial conversion
3. Wandering in the desert --- the powerless Christian life. Self still on the throne.
4. Crossing the Jordan --- The special experience of total surrender to Christ.
5. The promised land --- The victorious Christian life. Many challenges and enemies, but the totally surrendered Christian overcomes.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidon,
Analogies or typologies are never chronologically continuous. For example, Moses is a model of the Messiah who leads his people out of bondage. But the Messiah himself does not make it into the promis land?
Their snap shots, if you will. Thus I think the points you raise are correct but thats only one fold. In the same typologies shifted Egypt is sin which mankind has been in bondage to (For God has bound all men over to disobedience). Egypt also represents death which bounds the son of God until He is ressurected. Egypts also represents the old life a christian leaves behind (bondage to sin).
Pauls makes a curious point that Mr. White seems to somehow miss.
THAT MY POWER MIGHT BE DISPLAYED IN YOU.
James White only got it half right.
So the question is what power is displayed in the life of the pharoa?
He is broken at the death of the first born son (For God reconciled all things unto himself by making peace upon the cross).
Pharoa represents ALL MANKIND who is in rebellion to God (ALL MEN)
and by the death of the First Born Son (Jesus) his arrogance is broken and obedience is manifested.
True people say, well he then disobeyed God and went after Isreal. Again, It's a snap shot. Moses himself disobeyed God and was refuse the promise land. Is Moses saved? Of course he is. But Moses and Pharoa have something in common here don't they. FOR NO ONE LOVES GOD AND ALL ARE DISOBEDIENT (EXCEPT ONE). Thus Pharoa is no different than ol Mo on these grounds. Only one stands above all....The First Born Son of God.
Aug
Analogies or typologies are never chronologically continuous. For example, Moses is a model of the Messiah who leads his people out of bondage. But the Messiah himself does not make it into the promis land?
Their snap shots, if you will. Thus I think the points you raise are correct but thats only one fold. In the same typologies shifted Egypt is sin which mankind has been in bondage to (For God has bound all men over to disobedience). Egypt also represents death which bounds the son of God until He is ressurected. Egypts also represents the old life a christian leaves behind (bondage to sin).
Pauls makes a curious point that Mr. White seems to somehow miss.
THAT MY POWER MIGHT BE DISPLAYED IN YOU.
James White only got it half right.
So the question is what power is displayed in the life of the pharoa?
He is broken at the death of the first born son (For God reconciled all things unto himself by making peace upon the cross).
Pharoa represents ALL MANKIND who is in rebellion to God (ALL MEN)
and by the death of the First Born Son (Jesus) his arrogance is broken and obedience is manifested.
True people say, well he then disobeyed God and went after Isreal. Again, It's a snap shot. Moses himself disobeyed God and was refuse the promise land. Is Moses saved? Of course he is. But Moses and Pharoa have something in common here don't they. FOR NO ONE LOVES GOD AND ALL ARE DISOBEDIENT (EXCEPT ONE). Thus Pharoa is no different than ol Mo on these grounds. Only one stands above all....The First Born Son of God.
Aug
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason: