How about considering perspective?

[Guest]

thanks for the replies, guys. and I will go back and read the passage in isaiah paul alludes to in romans 9.

i'd like to share i've been thinking lately:

(1) i've been thinking about predestination/freewill too much lately--we need balance in our walk!!
(2) there is one more twist on the thing worth mentioning in hopes of clarifying the debate.

isn't the thing that keeps the calvinist defending his position his perception that if we attribute too much to man's freewill what we unwittingly can do is undermine the first doctrine the bible presents, that God creates and sustains everything and nothing that exists comes from any other source?

i think of verses like "In Him I live and move and have my being" (acts 17); "Through him all things were made. Without him nothing was made that has been made" (1 john)." "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Col 1)

maybe it helps the arminian to understand the calvinist (not the theory, but the person) to understand that this is what he is probably trying to protect and getting worked up about. And to separate off our choices into a separate category as if it leverages God or exists apart from God's creating and maintaining is actually perhaps an arrogant thing to do. We receive existence, not create it. isn't a choice a thing? something that exists? maybe i'm missing something.

but i would say (grasping, trying to use my limited bible understanding as best i can) that freewill is a great thing god created, and from within this consciousness it allows me to follow my imagination anywhere with my choices. and lo and behold, there is a duty to walk in the spirit and i need to choose to do that. So I do not perceive God forcing my decisions one way or another. But at a deeper sense, he must be if he is causing everything I am to proceed through existence.

this is why i brought up the veil and perspective. i'm trying to allow for both God's credit for everything that exists and the experience of free choice.

as far as god's character and that he is dishonest by maintaining a veil and determining behind it who will do what, here's how i see it. we have a god who not only stands behind the veil creating stuff (a necessary condition for anything to exist), but one who reveals himself on this side of the veil in all the events of the bible and ultimately in christ in such a way that we find ourself choosing him.

now, i can stand around complaining why didn't you draw this or that person (what paul is grieving about in rom 9-11), which is tough for me to know anyway, or i can abide in him and maybe watch more people be drawn to him through my example. it is to god's glory that creatures get tested and in scripture that process is likened to the way a nonliving piece of metal is refined in the fire. at least in the case of metal it doesn't depend on choice to work. in the end the metal has quality or it doesn't.

see, I wonder if we exalt our freewill and make too much of it. i'm especially suspicious of this being in our modern western culture. if i minimize it to avoid obedience, of course that is definitely a problem. i bet we do sense this sort of arrogance in some calvinists and shrink away from them. but i think i am minimizing freewill in my discussion because the reality is i am powerless to create matter from nothingness or extend my life or do much of anything. the only real choice is to abide and submit and then life gets better. very simple.

and to do that i really don't need to spend time wondering what's going on behind the veil, because it won't do me any good anyway. talk about futility! nevertheless, i do want to at least remember that God creates and sustains everything that exists, and maybe even in the final analysis my choices. or maybe i have been listening to sproul too much. but i see paul touch on this topic, praise god, and move on, and i suppose we should do likewise.

thanks again for your replies. god bless...

[Guest]

As I understand God's sovereignty, nothing happens outside His will. But I hasten to add He has a determined will, desired will, and a permissive will. Nothing happens outside His will; even that which He does not desire but permits to occur, He has a veto power over. In regard to our salvation, I believe normatively He allows free choice on our part.

Jesus said not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God. In my humble (I hope) opinion, I do not believe God is busy killing sparrows; He permits their death while always having a veto in every case.

It does seem biblical to me that God may wash His hands of certain people
before the end of their life and they have no further chance to repent. "My Spirit will not strive with man forever". How sad that people hear the gospel and do not respond, perhaps never to have Jesus pass their way again! What tragedy!

If I understand you, we are like puppets with God pulling the strings while we imagine we have a choice? The Calvinist wants to give God all the Glory, a wonderful motive. Please tell me how it glorifies God to assert the only ones who choose to love Him are compelled to.

It seems to make God a weak God if He can not take a risk of a person rejecting Him by their free choice. He would get along fine without us. Acts 17:25 "nor is He served by human hands, AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANYTHING, since He Himself gives to all men life and breath and everything".

May the Lord bless you, Homer

[Guest]

Jonathan and Guest,
Romans 9 has to do with why the Messiah has come and yet it seems that God's promises have failed, because there was/is not mass Jewish conversions, etc. Paul explians this in detail and explians why they stumble (trying to establish righteousness by works instead of faith). Paul then goes on to explain that those broken off can be grafted back on again by (their) faith. "That I might save some". A strange thing for Paul to say if it's God who makes the choice of belief. Seems Paul exorts people to believe and so be saved.

I think it goes back to the creation when God made man in His image. What does that mean? Certainly not that we are animals, who merely act on instinct. If we were, God would commend us for doing everything He ordained us to do, not condemning us for doing the very thing He created us to do. We are condemned because of sin. Sin is transgression of the law/command of God. The fact we can and are punished for transgressions proves that we can at least know what is right, but we are unable to do it without God as the focus of our motives. And His forgiveness when we do transgress. All of us sin and need the Grace of God. Did sin enter the world though man or God? Who made the choice? If God, then we are doing the very thing He wants us to do. But if it's us, who supress the truth in unrighteousness, then we shoulder the blame.

A Calvinist wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants man to be responsible for his sins, but God responsible for making people sin. All the while calling God innocent. In that respect, it's hard for the Calvinist to see how God would allow Grace to flow to the man, and allow man to reject it. Yet that's what He does. We don't earn our salvation by believing, it given to us as an offer. All it takes is for us to believe God can deliver what He has promised. (Romans 4)

[Guest]

Well I still go back to the words you dont seem to want to hear...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the word...It doesnt say that we were chose because God foreknew it and that was the choice...It simply says He chose us in Him...now admittedly you can make a contrary statement and then support it by what you think God means here...but if..and its a big if..you let the text speak for itself it clearly says He chose us in His Son...I think the phrase HE CHOSE..is what your stumbling over if I may be so bold..which while we are discussing this verse...it says He chose us before the foundation of the world...so apparently God does have total omniscience and its not limited as those who are into the moral government of God teach..God knew the outcome of it all before the world was ever made...You do beleive that God knows everything...dont you? Steve

Reference point 101

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... 0184a.html

[Guest]

What a silly question crusader! How comes this forum goes round and round?

[Guest]

Well some people actually do believe that God doesnt know everything...and its something that we need to be aware of thats all as far as the other debate goes its been going on for eons and I see no reason why it will ever stop...until people realize that both views are in Scripture yet men cant reconcile something God wrote and clearly understands..I never even thought about it much until a few years ago...and Ive been saved 31 years..I wonder if we can even say that anymore..for even that implies God did it...maybe the next thing will be when I chose Him...Even the term salvation ..seems to lend itself to the salvaging something..oh well Dont get me started..If Ive offended anyone here please forgive me...I just hate being right...Im laughing and only kidding...since I believe we are both right..and looking at the same coin,you see one side and while Im seeing both..thats all...Steve

[Guest]

1 Pet 1:1-5 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, ¶ To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

If it is said elsewhere in scripture, why does it need to be said everytime the word "chosen" is written?

[Guest]

"who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"

Who are chosen ( meaning the people God chooses ) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ( He had prior knowledge of those He would choose) which is in no conflict with Ephesians 1 and especially in light of the fact God knows all things seems easy to grasp. God knows who will get saved tomorrow at 3:46 in Southern California..And He chose them before the Earth was even made and long before the garden of Eden, while at the same time its also true they chose Him after hearing someone preach the Gospel on the corner of Colorado Bvld..Do we understand that...no not completely...are we asked to explain it nope!!!! Are we asked to believe it...you bet ya. Steve

[Guest]

Well I still go back to the words you dont seem to want to hear...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the word...It doesnt say that we were chose because God foreknew it and that was the choice...It simply says He chose us in Him...now admittedly you can make a contrary statement and then support it by what you think God means here...but if..and its a big if..you let the text speak for itself it clearly says He chose us in His Son...I think the phrase HE CHOSE..is what your stumbling over if I may be so bold..which while we are discussing this verse...it says He chose us before the foundation of the world...so apparently God does have total omniscience and its not limited as those who are into the moral government of God teach..God knew the outcome of it all before the world was ever made...You do beleive that God knows everything...dont you? Steve

Strange logic. I've already quoted Romans 8 and 1 Peter 1 that state it's those whom he foreknew. This means God knew beforehand which means He's omniscient. For some reason you keep ignoring the very point I am making that God foreknew (He's got to be omniscient to know beforehand doesn't He?) those whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Question for you. Are unbelievers saved? Does God give grace to the proud or the humble?

Believers are saved. What God foreknew is who would (future tense) believe the Gospel. He predestined those people to be a partaker of eternal life. Since God knows everything this is a simple feat.


You said:

It doesnt say that we were chose because God foreknew it

The Bible says:
"We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the father." (1 Peter 1-2)

It's no wonder we can't get anywere. You directly contradicted the Bible!

"chose us in Him" is not the same as "chose us to be in Him".

Eternal life is in Christ, not in us. If we are a partaker of Christ we are "in Him" (1 John 5:11-12)

[Guest]

We are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the father.

Well foreknowledge cant chose since it is an inanimate character trait or attribute of an omniscient living God,but God can chose,since Hes alive and has personality. So choice must be linked to Him and not foreknowledge since Hes the only one mentioned there that can do the choosing. If the word choose wasnt there I would have good cause to consider your reasoning more plausible.Yet I dont think it would make much sense to say " We are according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". Now if I were writing it your way I would say" We who accepted Jesus Christ by our free will which was known by God the father." See how that sounds much different. Now with all that said I also believe fully in your position that whosoever will may come,since its also taught in the Bible...steve