Calvinist & Arminian Thought Un-Biblical?

Re: Calvinism, Arminianism (and/or "Non-Calvinism"):

 
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:21 am

In any event....

I don't think the NT and/or Bible authors thought in terms of "propositional truth."

And, I've still not found any people in the Bible who thought about "Ordo Salutis" (Latin for "the order of events in salvation").....

Afaik, "ordo salutis" was invented in the 1600's by a Gentile guy.....

Enuf said on the thread from me, I think......I have too much studying to do!!

Btw, here's a cool link that talks about First Century Jewish Thought (for your listening pleasure: How First Century Jews -- and Jesus Himself! -- viewed the Messiah):

N.T. Wright Page:
download "Jesus and God" lecture


(Actually, I just found this lecture in text):
"Jesus and the Identity of God"
by N.T. Wright


This is also the name of one of NTW's books...I need to read....


Don't miss this one, folks! (awesome stuff) :wink:
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

__id_1679
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:14 am

Rick, re your response:


"In any event....

I don't think the NT and/or Bible authors thought in terms of "propositional truth."

And, I've still not found any people in the Bible who thought about "Ordo Salutis" (Latin for "the order of events in salvation")..... "

IMO, that would be like saying there is no "ordo salutis" to the events of creation we find in Genesis. In regeneration, we do indeed have an observable order of events in the life of a person who is brought to faith.
An order nevertheless whether or not we agree about the "how" or nature of the process. There is still an order to it, ie, hear the gospel, believe,you are born again, you are saved, sanctified..etc is your order of regeneration. Mine is regeneration, new birth, faith, salvation, etc...
Order is order bro! And maybe you have a point that the way the rabbi's taught truth was not in terms of "propositions", but they did think in terms
of catagories. So what is "wrong" with understanding the Word through a logical progression of thought? We are not like Arisotle who believed God was impersonal. We have the advantage of God's self disclosure from His Word. He didn't. But that does not mean we should ignore his methods of discovering truth through a logical lense. As I've said, truth is truth.

Peace in Him,
Bob
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:40 pm

Hi Homer,

Quote: "One of the difficulties with your position is that regeneration is a metaphor and can only partially be compared to physical birth and life. If it was, we would be able to maintain our spiritual life without God, just as a child can live if both parents are dead".

Huh? You lost me here bro. But I'll bite. Which part is partial? You must understand where I am coming from Homer with respect to regeneration. IMO, it is a process and I dont catagorize it as a single event in salvation.
Being "born again" is only one event among many "events" with in the framework of soteriology, starting with regeneration. I see it as the entire creative working of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and will have its ultimate conclusion when we are "glorified in Christ". Natural birth is a process as well. John's use of this analogy serves us as a contrast between the two births to be sure. However, his point IMO was to help us understand that "regeneration" is not by the acts, will or desire of man, but of God. Here is where the similarity ends between the two births. One is by a self determined will and in the realm of the flesh by sinful parents.
The other birth is "from above" and by a gracious loving Father. Our faith is certainly part of the process Homer. But again, regeneration not only precedes faith, it must if we are going to make any sense out of John's comparison with natural birth, IMO.
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Post by _Homer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:02 pm

Bob,
An order nevertheless whether or not we agree about the "how" or nature of the process. There is still an order to it, ie, hear the gospel, believe,you are born again, you are saved, sanctified..etc is your order of regeneration. Mine is regeneration, new birth, faith, salvation, etc...
Did you forget repentance? :shock: And the early Christians would have had baptism in there somewhere for sure.
Huh? You lost me here bro. But I'll bite. Which part is partial?
Almost all of it. Where in scripture do we find a comparison between the process of physical birth and spiritual birth? In physical birth, first a man mates with a woman. If she becomes pregnant, the father is no longer necessary. After nine months, the baby is born. From that point on, the mother is unnecessary. The baby can be placed with new parents and do just as well, and in many cases far better. Regeneration is a metaphor; there is not a lot of similarity to natural birth.
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:14 pm

Homer,

Quote;

"Almost all of it. Where in scripture do we find a comparison between the process of physical birth and spiritual birth? In physical birth, first a man mates with a woman. If she becomes pregnant, the father is no longer necessary. After nine months, the baby is born. From that point on, the mother is unnecessary. The baby can be placed with new parents and do just as well, and in many cases far better. Regeneration is a metaphor; there is not a lot of similarity to natural birth".

Where do we find the comparison? John 1:13, Jn 6:63
And what did Jesus say? "who is my mother, father, sister and brother?
And what did Paul say? Ephesians 1:4-5 " For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be ADOPTED as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will-.. Plan, purpose, will, adoption, is all there-before we believed!

We were replaced with new parents! God is now our Father. Is this merely a metaphor without substance or meaning? My point is Homer, that natural parents are still necessary in bringing us into this world, whether they discard us or are no longer necessary as you put it, is irrelavent. They are still the means by which we come into the world and that by the will of the "flesh". In regeneration it is by the Spirit in contrast with the will of the flesh. God brings us to birth with the intention of not leaving us or forsaking us as some natural parents do, but to bring us to Glory and to dwell with Him forever. "Do I not bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. Is 66:9 " He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ".. Phip 1:6

That like Paul's, is my confidence. I hope its yours as well.

Peace in Him,
Bob
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