Open Theism and Determinism

[kenblogton]

Reply to robbyyoung
kenblogton wrote: Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST Past, present and future are all time-based human realities. God's existence is entirely in the eternal present; His name tells us this: I AM (Exodus 3:14); theologians call this God's immanence. From before the Big Bang, God decrees and sees all of time from beginning to end. The past you refer to is our past, not God's - who has NO past! I tell you this based on Scripture; I have NO INTUITIVE UNDERSTANDING of what it means to have no past or future.
I have no idea what you are getting at here. Your gymnastics around vs.14-15 seem to have you all over the place. Prima Facie my dear brother. The text is crystal clear and what you are doing is clear Eisegesis.
I have nothing more to say regarding Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 - I've made my interpretation as clear as I can; let's just agree to disagree. I would caution you, though, that interpreting Bible passages in isolation from the rest of Scriptures on the topic likely leads to eisegesis. At http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html, it states "The process of exegesis involves 1) observation: what does the passage say? 2) interpretation: what does the passage mean? 3) correlation: how does the passage relate to the rest of the Bible? and 4) application: how should this passage affect my life?
However, regarding this last part of what you say, let me try to clarify : You previously wrote Since ALL THAT GOD DOES is in the PAST and I responded "Past, present and future are all time-based human realities. God's existence is entirely in the eternal present; His name tells us this: I AM (Exodus 3:14); theologians call this God's immanence. From before the Big Bang, God decrees and sees all of time from beginning to end. The past you refer to is our past, not God's - who has NO past!" If God has a past, He has a beginning; if God has a beginning, He was created; if God was created, He is NOT God! Eternal Uncreated God operates in the eternal now. God HAS NO PAST or FUTURE! Giving God a past is like giving Him a mighty arm or hand - it is anthropomorphic.
kenblogton

[Paidion]

If God "exists" outside of time (whatever "existence" outside of time means, since the very word "exists" implies the present), and sees only a great eternal NOW, then how does he distinguish temporal events? To Him it's all NOW. He can He tell us what to do, since He already sees us doing it or not doing it in the great, eternal NOW?

And where in the Bible do you find God's existence outside of time, or that He sees everything as occurring NOW? Or is this just a philosophical construct with no Biblical support?

[robbyyoung]

I have nothing more to say regarding Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 - I've made my interpretation as clear as I can; let's just agree to disagree. I would caution you, though, that interpreting Bible passages in isolation from the rest of Scriptures on the topic likely leads to eisegesis. At http://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html, it states "The process of exegesis involves 1) observation: what does the passage say? 2) interpretation: what does the passage mean? 3) correlation: how does the passage relate to the rest of the Bible? and 4) application: how should this passage affect my life?

Ok Ken we'll respectfully disagree. I'll close by simply saying Ecc 3:14-15 doesn't contradict God in any way. How you see that it does is a mystery to me. Every time scripture gives the perception of choice, decisions, or whatever... The over-arching perception should be what is found here in Ecc 3:14-15 because it's a direct revelation of God's attribute. All that God does has been accomplished already. God then summons the past to Himself, but from our vantage point IT"S NEVER BEEN and Ecc 3:14-15 CORRECTS our erroneous thinking. The Exegesis of this passage will not fail the test!

Take care Ken and God Bless!

[mattrose]

Robbyyoung,

Do you also agree that everything is meaningless?

[robbyyoung]

Robbyyoung,

Do you also agree that everything is meaningless?

Matt,

As you know, the entire teaching in Ecclesiastes drips with the meaningless message since the righteous and the wicked both die in the end. They both receive blessings and misfortunes, what is to be fair and unfair, this is God's doing. So yes, all the superficial fluff in life is indeed meaningless. What remains meaningful is the conclusion of the matter found in Ecc 12:12-14 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

[mattrose]

My point was that we need to be pretty careful about taking anything from Ecclesiastes to build doctrine. It is an inspired record of someone's search for meaning, not necessarily an endorsement of all of his thoughts. In other words, if your favorite text to prove God's existence outside of time is found in Ecclesiastes... I don't think you're on very solid ground.

The author of Ecclesiastes is not, I don't think, giving us excellent theology on God & time. He is making the point that from his perspective God's sovereignty renders most everything meaningless. God's plans for the future will come to pass. We don't have the power to change much. What we see in the present is the same stuff that's always happened. What will take place in the future will be the same stuff we see going on now. He is not writing from a place of revelation, but from personal searching. His thoughts are not sourced from heaven, but from under the sun.

[robbyyoung]

My point was that we need to be pretty careful about taking anything from Ecclesiastes to build doctrine. It is an inspired record of someone's search for meaning, not necessarily an endorsement of all of his thoughts. In other words, if your favorite text to prove God's existence outside of time is found in Ecclesiastes... I don't think you're on very solid ground.

The author of Ecclesiastes is not, I don't think, giving us excellent theology on God & time. He is making the point that from his perspective God's sovereignty renders most everything meaningless. God's plans for the future will come to pass. We don't have the power to change much. What we see in the present is the same stuff that's always happened. What will take place in the future will be the same stuff we see going on now. He is not writing from a place of revelation, but from personal searching. His thoughts are not sourced from heaven, but from under the sun.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your opinion. But I'll stick with the sure thing

[Singalphile]

It is an inspired record of someone's search for meaning ...

Ecclesiastes is a bit of a tricky one. That's a good way to put it. I'll remember it.

Now where's this list of user post-counts? I want to see it.

[mattrose]

Gentlemen, note the following:

Ecc 3:14-15 I know that whatever God doeth, it shall be for ever; there is nothing to be added to it, nor anything to be taken from it; and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which is - was long ago, and that which is to be - hath already been; and God bringeth back again that which is past.

Here God tells us that all He does was set perfectly from eternity. He then shares with us that He summons these things into our TIME EXISTENCE. It has already been accomplish on His end and then He summons it into our unfolding time. So what does this mean to you? Can you accept this or not? The fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom, so does this knowledge of scripture bring the fear of God before us?

This is a principle established by God, so how can we reconcile this with other passages that seem to suggest otherwise?

What is the 'sure thing' you refer to? It seems to me that at the end of your earlier post you admitted there are passages that seem to suggest something different.

The mistake, I think, is in your interpretation of the passage.

1. You start by saying "Here God tells us" but that's forgetting that God is not the speaker in Ecclesiastes 3.
2. You then suggest the passage says that all God's actions were set from eternity. But the passage doesn't say anything of the sort. It says that whatever God chooses to do, lasts. It doesn't tell us if God chose to do everything He'll ever do at the beginning of time (let alone outside of time). The passage is simply saying that when God does stuff, it sticks.
3. You then state dogmatically that the passage says "He summons these things into our TIME EXISTENCE" even though the passage says nothing of the sort. You're reading that into the passage. Could it be interpreted that way? I suppose so. But that is hardly the only interpretive option. It could just as easily be the author's way of saying that life tends to go in cycles (this fits much better with the context).

You are, of course, free to interpret the passage as you have. But I don't think it makes sense to say your interpretation of it is a certainty... especially when it hasn't even really been defended.

[mattrose]

It is an inspired record of someone's search for meaning ...

Ecclesiastes is a bit of a tricky one. That's a good way to put it. I'll remember it.

Now where's this list of user post-counts? I want to see it.

Haha, once in a while I click MEMBERS (upper right corner) and then POSTS (I usually have to click it twice to make it go in descending order) and check out the post totals. I don't know why I do this except that I used to be an admin at another message board and we did awards for the most frequent posters You are on page 2 for this website it seems.