Open Theism and Determinism

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Homer
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:41 am

Hi Matt,

You wrote:
I think Peter is saying that Judas is the one the lived himself into the prophecy, not the the prophecy specifically envisioned Judas. I especially think this b/c the prophecy did not specifically name Judas. It was a general prophecy open to a variety of specific fulfillments.
But then the same argument could be made about Jesus also, I would think? Peter said "concerning (Greek preposition peri) Judas, and Jesus said:

Luke 24:44, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44. Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about (Grk. peri) Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Doesn't seem to be a good argument you have there; Jesus was not named either. But I have about as many questions as I have answers regarding this subject. I think we are in over our heads.

God bless!

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:10 am

I don't see a need to think of the Messianic prophecies much differently. When Jesus told the disciples on the road to Emmaus that the Old Testament was about him, he wasn't, I don't think, suggesting that there were multitudes of prophecies literally fulfilled in the sense that we often mean the term literally. I think he was suggesting that the story of what God was trying to do throughout the Old Testament was brought together (fulfilled) in the story of Christ.

This seems, to me, to be how the NT writers viewed the matter. It's a more typological approach I guess.

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:44 am

I agree this refers back to Adam & Eve. Vanity in the NIV is translated frustration. They would not have chosen to be tempted by Satan, just as Job would not have chosen to be tested by Satan. But they were tested, and Adam & Eve failed the test. Romans 8:20-21 states "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." The consequence of their bad choice, the good that resulted from it, was Christ.








In summary,

I think God foreordained the testing and knew what the results would be. If Open Theism is true then God knew with 99.9% certainty and if Eve passed the test God would have kept testing her.

In 1st Peter 1.20 Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Christ only became Christ after his sacrifice so i see this as Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world to carry out his mission. The verse before refers to the "precious blood of Christ" so it not only refers to Christ being foreordained but also his sacrifice.

For some reason which no one has an answer to, it appears that good and evil must be experienced and learned together. There is not much said about it but i deduce my opinion from this,

knowledge of good and evil are together in the same tree , whereas as far as we know could have been in separate trees. BTW "knowledge" i think it not just an academic knowledge but it means "to experience." The tree is placed in the midst of the garden instead of a more remote location.
"knowing good and evil they have become like us" Why wouldn't it say that simply knowing good was enough?
In the parable of the Wheat and the Tares the Angel is told to keep the Tares with the Wheat until the harvest. Apparently destroying the Tares (evil) would damage the Wheat (good) before the harvest (last day).

Also God could intervene and destroy Satan who tries to deceive us and tempt us into evil. Also i do think God gives us as much free will as possible and the largest amount of choices possible and eliminating evil would reduce our choices greatly.
It's impossible for us to understand why God doesn't intervene and stop certain atrocities that we think s/b stopped and i can't even pretend to have an answer because i have no idea.

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Paidion
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:30 am

Steve7150 wrote:I think God foreordained the testing and knew what the results would be.
In what way would it be a test, if God knew what the results would be? Would a chemist test a substance if he already knew the results of the test? Would a teacher test his pupils if he already knew what the results would be?

After God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham passed the test, having bound Isaac upon the altar and having raised his knife to slay him, Yahweh said to him:

"Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (Gen 22:12)

The implication is that prior to the test, Yahweh did NOT know that Abraham was fully devoted to Him.

You are repeating your ideas about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I suggested that the results of eating from it, enabled one to distinguish good from evil, and showed from NT scripture that for a person who is mature in Christ, this is a good thing. Since you haven't commented (or if you did, I didn't see it), and you are still saying the same things, I presume you have rejected the explanation.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by kenblogton » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:33 am

Reply to steve7150
In summary,
I think God foreordained the testing and knew what the results would be. If Open Theism is true then God knew with 99.9% certainty and if Eve passed the test God would have kept testing her.

If God knew what the results of the testing would be, Eve did not have free will, but she did!
In 1st Peter 1.20 Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Christ only became Christ after his sacrifice so i see this as Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world to carry out his mission. The verse before refers to the "precious blood of Christ" so it not only refers to Christ being foreordained but also his sacrifice.
As noted in an earlier post, Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world contingent on the human sin.
For some reason which no one has an answer to, it appears that good and evil must be experienced and learned together. There is not much said about it but i deduce my opinion from this,
knowledge of good and evil are together in the same tree , whereas as far as we know could have been in separate trees. BTW "knowledge" i think it not just an academic knowledge but it means "to experience." The tree is placed in the midst of the garden instead of a more remote location.
"knowing good and evil they have become like us" Why wouldn't it say that simply knowing good was enough?
In the parable of the Wheat and the Tares the Angel is told to keep the Tares with the Wheat until the harvest. Apparently destroying the Tares (evil) would damage the Wheat (good) before the harvest (last day).

Good and evil are together because, given that we have free will, we can choose to do good or to do "not good," which is evil. I believe one reason the Tares are kept around until the harvest is because they may repent and become Wheat before the harvest.
Also God could intervene and destroy Satan who tries to deceive us and tempt us into evil. Also i do think God gives us as much free will as possible and the largest amount of choices possible and eliminating evil would reduce our choices greatly.
It's impossible for us to understand why God doesn't intervene and stop certain atrocities that we think s/b stopped and i can't even pretend to have an answer because i have no idea.

Satan's fate is eternity in hell; Satan's value is as the tempter. God doesn't stop our atrocities because they are caused by man, not foreordained by God, which helps us humans better appreciate the consequences of human sin.
kenblogton

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:14 pm

After God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham passed the test, having bound Isaac upon the altar and having raised his knife to slay him, Yahweh said to him:

"Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (Gen 22:12)

The implication is that prior to the test, Yahweh did NOT know that Abraham was fully devoted to Him.

You are repeating your ideas about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I suggested that the results of eating from it, enabled one to distinguish good from evil, and showed from NT scripture that for a person who is mature in Christ, this is a good thing. Since you haven't commented (or if you did, I didn't see it), and you are still saying the same things, I presume you have rejected the explanation.





Paidion,
Re Abraham i wonder what God's attribute of omniscience amounts to if He can not even predict what Eve or Abraham would do? From their perspective they were tested because they really had a free will choice. From God's perspective i think If OT is true, that he indeed knew at a 99.9% success rate what Eve would do and probably 95% for Abraham. But i'm just guessing so i may be wrong.
Eating from the tree IMO was just a first step for obtaining the knowledge of good and evil. Distinguishing is one thing , knowledge or "knowing" means you have to experience both. Biblically speaking when a man and women "know" each other they have been intimate or experienced each other.

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:16 pm

As noted in an earlier post, Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world contingent on the human sin.








Did Peter say "contingent on human sin"?

What does foreordained mean to you?

kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by kenblogton » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:00 pm

Reply to steve7150
Did Peter say "contingent on human sin"?
What does foreordained mean to you?

Peter did not say contingent on human sin. But all the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin; if we had not sinned, the need would not have been there.
Foreordained means decreed by God.
kenblogton

Jenpe
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Jenpe » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:55 pm

kenblogton wrote:But all the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin.
Ken, are you saying that all 12 apostles tell us that? Would you quote a few of the verses where at least some of the apostles tell us Christ came to redeem us from the penalty for sin.

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Paidion
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:02 pm

Ken, the angel said to Joseph in a dream concerning his wife Mary:

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21)

The angel did NOT say, "... for he will save his people from the penalty for their sins.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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