Election to hell is God's choice

[Guest]

Jude 1:4 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

The Greek actually says "written before"; the sense is that these people had previously been written about - most likely in the form of a warning (see Romans 16:18.) It is not unlikely that the author of Jude himself had written about them.

There is no suggestion of predestination in this verse.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil."

John Gill's commentary states:

• yea, even the wicked for the day of evil
  this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory.
  
  It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination:
  
  God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice.

1 Peter 2:8 "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Their disobedience is not appointed; their punishment as a result of that disobedience, is appointed.

Quit fighting against God's sovereignty as he chooses which individuals go to hell and which go to heaven. Submit your pride to Him and repent of your stubborness. Scripture is clear.

Yes, God is sovereign. But no, He does not always exercise His sovereignty.

If He did, nobody would ever sin because we would all be doing His will. We know this because His will is that "all should come to repentence" (II Peter 3:9) and yet sin abounds.

Hence we see that His will is not always enforced upon His creation - and so the Reformed argument is defeated.

Calvinism is a false religion. Repent from it, and embrace Christianity.

[Guest]

And if God simply chooses who's damned and who's saved, then Reformed Christians shouldn't bother preaching the Gospel anyway, because it's all a foregone conclusion.

One of my brothers who was, for many years, a Baptist preacher of Calvinist persuasion, was asked why he preached the gospel, since everyone was already predestined to heaven or to hell, and that predestined appointment never be changed.

My brother's reply: "I was predestined to do so."

[Guest]

And if God simply chooses who's damned and who's saved, then Reformed Christians shouldn't bother preaching the Gospel anyway, because it's all a foregone conclusion.

One of my brothers who was, for many years, a Baptist preacher of Calvinist persuasion, was asked why he preached the gospel, since everyone was already predestined to heaven or to hell, and that predestined appointment never be changed.

My brother's reply: "I was predestined to do so."

[Guest]

I am reminded of the pilgrim marching off to church with his trusty musket over his shoulder. A man encountered him and said "Why the musket, don't you believe you are safe until you're predestined to die? The pilgrim replied "Its in case I meet an Indian whose time has come to die!"

[Guest]

I am reminded of the pilgrim marching off to church with his trusty musket over his shoulder. A man encountered him and said "Why the musket, don't you believe you are safe until you're predestined to die? The pilgrim replied "Its in case I meet an Indian whose time has come to die!"

Bwahahah!

[Guest]

One of my brothers who was, for many years, a Baptist preacher of Calvinist persuasion, was asked why he preached the gospel, since everyone was already predestined to heaven or to hell, and that predestined appointment never be changed.

My brother's reply: "I was predestined to do so."

Good illustration, Paidion.

To me, reformed thinking disallows effective preaching of the Gospel. On the streets, a reformed man couldn't say to a random individual "Christ died for you!" because Christ may have not died for that man ...

How sad...

[Guest]

Where did the Calvinist go? Two days now, and no sign of him...

[Guest]

Steve wrote: Peter says (in 1 Peter 2:8 ) that those who are unbelievers were "appointed" to stumble, "being disobedient to the word." Was it a career of disobedience to which they were appointed, or was it stumbling that was "appointed" for them as a consequence of their disobedience? The sentence can be understood either way, but it is more in keeping with the declarations of scripture to say that they chose their own ways, whereas God chose their punishments (in this case, stumbling). See Isaiah 66:3-4— "Just as they have chosen their own ways...so will I choose their delusions."

Steve, in light of your explanation of this text, could you comment on the following? It is a footnote on this verse by Wayne Grudem in the chapter election and reprobation in his systematic theology book.


Grudem wrote: This verse does not simply say that God destined the fact that those who disobey would stumble, but speaks rather of God destining certain people to disobey and stumble "as they were destined to do" (The greek verb: etethesan, "they were destined," requires a plural subject.)

[Guest]

I would like to comment, not on Grudem's statement, but upon the passage itself in context:

Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in cripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."

To you therefore who are persuaded, he is precious, but for those who are not persuaded, "The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner," and a stone of stumbling and a rock of tripping for the ones who stumble, who are not persuaded by the Word [the gospel] into which they were appointed. I Peter 2:1-8

The very ones who are not persuaded and who stumble, were appointed into the gospel just as were those who were persuaded and did not stumble. But that to which they were appointed was of no avail for them, because they were not persuaded by it.

[Guest]

On another forum, I asked the question how Jude 4 could be understood in terms of an Openess Theology.

I asked how do Open Theists manage to cope with Jude 4 given that the KJV speaks of certain men who were before of old ordained to condemnation, and the NIV words it that these certain men's condemnation was written about long ago. So, I asked is there anyway we can know when their condemnation was written about, and how far back before these men came into existence?

One brother that goes by godrulz wrote:

This may refer to generic OT prophecies that would apply to any godless enemy of the people of God and their truth. The historical interpretation of the original passage can be applied to any person or group, even today, by way of principle, who bring a false gospel. It can be predicted that anyone with a false gospel is condemned, regardless of the era they exist in. Just as we can say the false Judaizers were condemned by Paul, so we can apply the same principles to Mormons and JWs without saying the passage specifically refers to modern groups (which it did not originally, but does so by way of timeless application of principles).

Jude 4 is not commonly used by anti-OT people because it really is not a proof text to bring down the view. The passage also does not name individuals in advance, but is generic condemnation of anyone or group that perverts God's grace and reject's God's Son. We can all say that anyone past, present, or future who does so is condemned based on what was written long ago (timeless truths with an historical interpretation, but many applications by way of principle).

Any antinomian Christ-denying person in any generation is condemned based on God's historical Word. The principles in Jude as warnings of the perils of apostasy and false religion apply to all future generations, even though they were originally couched in a specific historical context.

--

Then, another brother that goes by *Acts9_12Out* said:

First, we must figure out who Jude is referring to.

Secondly, we must figure out what "condemnation" Jude refers to, and when this condemnation was written about.

Thirdly (and I think most importantly for this discussion), we must figure out if "long ago" actually means "from before the foundation of the world" or something else. Maybe it means "100 years ago" or even "a few months ago."

Let us reason together... If you don't mind, I'll quote the NKJV and refer to the MT Greek.

Jude 4 (NKJV)
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation (judgment), ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's work in reverse here... I prefer to translate "condemnation" as "judgment" because the greek word is krima. This word is commonly translated as "judgment" so I prefer to translate it as such. I'll explain in a minute why I think this translation is correct and important.

Next, let's figure out how long ago "long ago" really is... The word translated "long ago" in Jude 4 is palai. This same word is used in Mark 15:44.

Mark 15:44 (NKJV)
44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. "palai"

"...for some time" in Mark 15:44 is the same word, palai. There is nothing to suggest that "long ago" in Jude 4 must refer to "from before the foundation of the world," or even "10 years ago." In fact, Pilate is amazed that Jesus died so quickly, and asks "how long" has He been dead? Pilate does not believe Jesus has been dead for thousands of years... For some reason, we want to force that interpretation on the same word used in Jude 4.

The fact is, Jude is simply stating that "certain men have crept in unnoticed, who some time ago were written about for this judgment."

So, who are these guys? I believe Jude is referring to Peter's verdict of judgment of false prophets from his 2nd epistle. That's why the translation of "judgment" is important.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)
2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

In summary, Jude is not referring to "certain men" who were judged by God from before creation. Jude has knowledge of Peter's epistle and refers to the same men Peter refers to. This really had nothing to do with OV vs. SV here. This is Jude commenting on Peter's writings.